It’s not obvious from the grainy photos of the J-20 what engines the plane currently uses, but it’s probably safe to assume they’re Russian AL-31Fs—still the best engines China reliably has access to. However, the AL-31F is clearly inadequate for the apparently heavy J-20. Even the up-rated 117S version of the AL-31F ‘would likely not be sufficient to extract the full performance potential of this advanced airframe,’ Kopp and Goon wrote. To perform at its best, the J-20 will probably need purpose-designed motors. And developing those could take a long, long time.
Equally vexing to Beijing’s aerospace designers and military planners are the sophisticated electronic, conceptual and human systems required in and around a modern fighter aircraft in order for that aircraft to deliver a useful military effect.
Richard Aboulafia, an analyst with the US Teal Group, told the Internet trade publication Defense Tech that a modern fighter requires at least 11 supporting systems to be effective, including but not limited to sound mission planning, a talented and disciplined pilot, good maintenance personnel on the ground, accurate weapons, an advanced radar and other electronic systems inside the aircraft plus ‘off-board’ radar detection provided by purpose-built command-and-control planes and the reliable ministration of an aerial tanker.
Of all the systems required by a modern fighter, Beijing has mastered just one, Aboulafia said—and that’s the airplane’s physical structure itself, minus the engines.
The Sky is Falling
Still, according to Kopp and Goon the J-20 represents a profound shift in the Pacific balance of power. ‘Any notion that an F-35 Joint Strike Fighter or F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (flown by the U.S. Navy and Australia) will be capable of competing against this Chengdu design in air combat, let alone penetrate airspace defended by this fighter, would be simply absurd,’ they wrote.
And even the more cautious Ding says he can imagine a near-future where the J-20 dominates.
‘If the technological barrier of a fighter engine is overcome, China will be able to produce advanced fighters indigenously,’ he says. ‘And, along with other capable aircraft, such as airborne early-warning and air refuelling aircrafts, the Asian Pacific's political landscape will be changed, as China's military capability can win over countries in this region.’
That’s precisely the position that many US commentators, particularly conservative hardliners, are sure to take as acceptance of the J-20 sinks in. After all, they’ve done it before. In 2004, Indian pilots flying Russian-made Sukhoi Su-30s (a predecessor of the T-50) reportedly ‘defeated’ US Air Force-flown F-15s (the F-22’s predecessor) in an aerial training exercise hosted in India. ‘Third world countries may be able to challenge US command of the skies,’ lamented Loren Thompson, an analyst with the Lexington Institute, a right-leaning Washington think tank.
Thompson and others used the Cope India example as an argument in favour of buying F-22s to replace the roughly 400 F-15s. Few revised their opinions when it came to light that the US pilots had apparently flown over India under restrictions—that is, using deliberately inferior tactics—meant to even the odds for the Indians and make the training fairer. As a result, the Cope India incident marked the birth of a theme—that America could no longer reliably win battles in the sky.
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Wilson
These trainers put convenience initially for the wearer of the trainer.
Secure the digital digicam using Air Max 2012 precise mounts, and so on.
Several professionals with Nike, as Parker is a youthful athlete.
When you acquire this shoe, moreover the convenience, you will appear stunning.
http://wiki.best-ict.nl/index.php?title=Gebruiker:
StanleyUfg
clickbank making money
Well said.
David P.Curcione
1. The Speed is J-20 is (M)2.00+ Miles per Hour too! 3rd Compatered for Making Fighter Jets Fifth Geration too!
typhoonq
@Observer
I have actually responded to your comments earlier but unfortunately it was not accepted by the moderator.
To substantiate what I had posted earlier, please view MilitaryHistoryonline.com
“China Support for North Vietnam during the Vietnam War: The Decisive Edge”
by Bob Seals.
US would have invaded North Vietnam and win the War,if not of China involvement. In his memoir by Robert MacNamara,US was prepared to invade North Vietnam but had to abort for fear of Chinese intervention.
Between 1965 and 1970, over 320,000 Chinese soldiers served in North Vietnam.
At the peak year of 1967, there were 170,000. Some were Chinese military advisers disguised as North Vietnamese officers and accompanied the NVA to the South in combat with the Americans Forces.
Johnny
@typhoonq You comments are blocked by moderators as they lack in content,facts and you quote users comments in inappropriate manner. We all know that you post your comments without using the ‘reply’ button only to put your comment in front. People like you would be blocked in any site/forum with active moderators for violating posting norms but Diplomat is very liberal and perhaps hoping you will leave this practice by inner shame.
Observer
@typhoonq
I am unable to find the said article you refered to at MilitaryHistoryonline.com. Can you provide a direct link
so we all can see for ourself?
Here is my research:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#People.27s_Republic_of_China
“…In 1950, the People’s Republic of China extended diplomatic recognition to the Viet Minh’s Democratic Republic of Vietnam and sent weapons, as well as military advisors led by Luo Guibo to assist the Viet Minh in its war with the French. The first draft of the 1954 Geneva Accords was negotiated by French Prime Minister Pierre Mendès France and Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai who, fearing U.S. intervention, urged the Viet Minh to accept a partition at the 17th parallel.[200]
China’s ability to aid the Viet Minh declined when Soviet aid to China was reduced following the end of the Korean War in 1953. Moreover, a divided Vietnam posed less of a threat to China. China provided material and technical support to the Vietnamese communists worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Chinese-supplied rice allowed North Vietnam to pull military-age men from the paddies and imposed a universal draft beginning in 1960.
In the summer of 1962, Mao Zedong agreed to supply Hanoi with 90,000 rifles and guns free of charge. Starting in 1965, China sent anti-aircraft units and engineering battalions to North Vietnam to repair the damage caused by American bombing, rebuild roads and railroads, and to perform other engineering works. This freed North Vietnamese army units for combat in the South.
Sino-Soviet relations soured after the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia in August 1968. In October, the Chinese demanded North Vietnam cut relations with Moscow, but Hanoi refused.[201] The Chinese began to withdraw in November 1968 in preparation for a clash with the Soviets, which occurred at Zhenbao Island in March 1969. The Chinese also began financing the Khmer Rouge as a counterweight to the Vietnamese communists at this time. China’s withdrawal from Vietnam was completed in July 1970…”
I understand that China and USSR did provide supplies and weapons to North Vietnam to encounter the supplies and weapons to South Vietnam from the US but I
did not see anywhere (even from the well known Wiki) that Chinese personnels were side by side with North Vietnamese troops and fought the US/South Vietnam force.
You also said “…..a Third Rate military power (Vietnam)…..”
Historic facts: Vietnam overcame 1000 years of repeating invasion and enslavement from China (with several short lived rebelions) and beat China for good in 938 CE. Vietnam also beat the Mongols hordes not one, not two, but THREE TIMES by itself while the ‘great’ China (Tong Dynasty) fall like a house of cards under the Mongols. Please name a country in that era that was able to beat the Mongols three times. Vietnam also beat the French at Diet Bien Phu and the Americans and the murderous Khmer Rouge in 1978 and China again in 1979 (by itself vs. China).
Look like they do know how to fight by themselves for a few thousands years to us, with or without China or anyone’s help. You were saying about “third rate”? That’s not what others said about them vs. China, especially in 1979.
One more thing, you still haven’t say anything in response to the flaw and wrong statements from Chinese posters/symphathisers as I said in my previous post.
typhoonq
@Observer
Why don’t you try : http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/20thcentury/articles/Chinesesupport.aspx
This article by Bob Seals had answered to most of your questions.
1. I am very surprised you have not rebutted my 10 points “Why Vietnam could not have won the Vietnam War if not of China Support”
2. I had already stated earlier, most Western media had played down the Chinese
contribution to the Vietnamese victory during the Vietnam War and Wikipedia
is no exception.
3. I doubt you know the Chinese language and my conculsion is that you are mainly sourcing information from very biased Western views which are mainly written in English.
4. Many of the Chinese clandestine operations during the Vietnam War are now been declassified thru 3rd party. Veterans from the PLA who participated in the war had written many personal encounter taken out from personal diaries and military archieves.
I am not surprise you will say what I read are all Chinese propaganda and lies.
However, I will like to hear from you “Can North Vietnam defend herself entirely if US will to invade them in 1970″
Bearing in mind, North Korea was saved by China when US led UN Forces captured most of North Korea during the Korean War.
Observer
@ typhoonq
Nice article, I am not sure who is Bob Seals or if he was telling the truth or not but let say he is real and he was telling the truth. The article DID NOT, again DID NOT… say anywhere that Chinese soldiers fought side by side with North Vietnamese soldiers against American/South Vietnamese forces as you have claimed in your previous post…(direct quote from you)…”………..The PLA have in depth knowledge of Vietnamese Army thru years of providing military advisers and soldiers that fought side by side against the Americans during the Vietnam War…..…” So your statement was wrong then, and it is still wrong now.
You asked…(direct quotes)…”Could Vietnam have won the war if not of China support? Can North Vietnam defend herself entirely if US will to invade them? US would have invaded North Vietnam…” First of all, as with all of “what IF”, we shall never know for sure but let take a walk down the UNDISPUTABLE history lane, shall we? Let see how well the Vietnamese fought and keep its sovereign throughout 4000 plus years of history.
Historic facts: Vietnam did achieve impressive victories against the much bigger Chinese after 1000 years of repeating invasions and enslavement (with quite a few short lived rebellions) and get rid of the Chinese forever in 938, against the Mongols in 1200s (not one, not three, but THREE TIMES), against the French in 1950s, against the American in 1960s, against the Khmer Rouge in 1978, against the Chinese again in 1979. Are you going to say Vietnam achieved ALL of those HUGE victories with Chinese’ help? Even against the Chinese? Name another small country with better military record against bigger and strong enemies (with as long or longer history) for us please.
Please tell us how well the Chinese fought against the Mongols in 1200s, against the Manchu in 1600s, against the British in 1800s, against the Japanese in 1930s, against the Vietnamese in 1979. Third rate military you said? Are you sure you were not talking about the Chinese?
I did reply to your 10 points post with (direct quote) in my previous post…”… .I understand that China and USSR did provide supplies and weapons to North Vietnam to encounter the supplies and weapons to South Vietnam from the US but I did not see anywhere (even from the well known Wiki) that Chinese personnels were side by side with North Vietnamese troops and fought the US/South Vietnamese forces…” and so far, my statement is still standing tall.
You also “forgot” to mention all the supplies, weapons, and supports the USSR (Russia now) sent to North Vietnam. China DID NOT do it alone. How convenient that you “forgot” to state that fact.
Now it is my turn. When are you going to say something in response to the ridiculous statements from Chinese/China sympathizer posters as I mentioned in my previous post? What are you waiting for? I made my several rebuttals with undisputable historic facts, now it is your turn. Don’t be a hypocrite.
Seston
I love these aritcles. How many words can a wordsmith smith?
typhoonq
@ Observer
In April, 2006 an evenet was held in Vietnam to honor almost 1,100 Chinese soldiers klled and 4,200 injured during the Vietnam War.
typhoonq
@ Observer
Just back from holiday. Most Western media had down played China contribution to Vietnamese victory over the Americans during the Vietnam War.
There is one article from Military Historyonline.com “China Support for North Vietnam during the Vietnam War : The Decisive Edge
So why did the powerful nations like France and US lose two wars in Vietnam to a Third Rate military power.
Without a shadow of doubts China involvement had played a major role in helping Vietnam to win these wars.
1. US would have invaded North Vietnam and finished off the North Vietnamese Army just like what they did to Iraq. However, it was quite different during that Originally, Robert Macnamara and Gen Westmoreland proposed to invade North Vietnam to secure early victory, but had to abort such plan for fear of Chinese intervention. They do not want another Korean War after experineceing defeat in North Korea. (US led UN Forces had to retreat from the Yalu back to South Korea after they were defeated)
2. Most of North Vietnamese War machines and supplies came via China either by land or sea. Without these supplies North Vietnamese War machines would have grinded to a halt.
3.North Vietnam had to rely entirely on USSR and China to provide all the necessites to fight against the Americans. USSR provide the major military hardwares like SAM missiles, Radars,Migs, rockets,Tanks,PT missile boats.
China also provide tanks, Artillery pieces,Ant-Aircraft guns,assault rifles
Trucks,machine guns,ammunition, RPG Anti-tank weapons,granades,Food, fuel.
4. China provide sancturary to North Vietnamese Air Force after their air bases were destroyed by USAF.
5. China deployed 20 Anti-aircraft divisions and was reponsible of shooting down 1,700 US aircraft.
6. China also deployed several combat Engineer Divisions to help the Vietnamese to repairs road,railway lines and bridges after USAF bombing run on North Vietnam infra structure.
7. Between 1965 and 1970, over 320,000 Chinese soldiers served in North Vietnam.
At it’s peak in 1967, there were 170,000 PLA troops.
This had eable to free large number of North Vietnamese Divisions to move to the South to fight against the US Forces.
8. China provide many Korean war veteran military advisors to North Vietnamese combat Divisions. They were usually disguised as North Vietnamese officers.
9. The Doctrine of Tunnel Warfare first developed and mastered by the Chinese gurellias during the Sino Japanese War were taught and adopted by the Vietnamese to great success while fighting against vastly superior American Forces in South Vietnam.
10. China had also provide North Vietnam with vast amount of medicine, field hospitals, Doctors and Nurses.
I reckon I have said enough. You are most welcome to rebutt what I just stated.
typhoonq
@leongkidlat
Communism is dead in China. China is now ruled by a single party who is officially know as the Communist Party of China.Although they called themselves as communist,they are more captalist than most democratic countries.
Whether you like it or not. Majority of the Chinese support their present government because it had brought tremendous prosperity and vast improvement on people living standard over the last 30 years. As compared to the Mao’s era, Chinese today are able to own their houses,start their own business,choose their jobs,travel freely,and have nine years of free education.
Based on your theory, whoever support China in this forum, they are Chinese communist. If that is the case can I say you are a Tawainese spy talking on behalf of the PPP.
There are 35 million ethnic Chinese living outside of China and Taiwan. We are all very proud of being Chinese and will not hesistate to stand up on those who insult and tell lies about China.
I am a 2nd generation Chinese Singaporean and I am a frequent visitor to China over the last 25 years and I travel widely in the course of my business trip. English is my 2nd language and I think I am well informed and have a balance view on both Western and Sino politics.
Observer
@ Typhoonq
You said “….will not hesistate to stand up on those who insult and tell lies about China.”
What did/will you do when Chinese posters or Chinese symphathisers told outrageous lies about other countries? Why are you still hesistate to response?
For examples (direct quotes):
“…China is being very peaceful because it wants to develop but if aggressors like Japan and Vietnam were to destroy the foundation for development.” from YiJiun
My debunk: http://thediplomat.com/2010/05/06/china-ready-to-dominate-seas/
“…Vietnam attacked China in 1976.” (I think he meant 1979) from John Chan.
My debunk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War
“…The PLA have in depth knowledge of Vietnamese Army thru years of providing military advisers and soldiers that fought side by side against the Americans during the Vietnam War.” from youself.
My debunk: I asked you to provide links/articles to support your statement (from another article) but so far, you still unable to do so.
I don’t see you stand up and correct those posters. What’s the matter? Do as I say and not as I do?
We are waiting. Actions speak louder than words.
YiJiun
typhoonq,
Although ‘great minds think alike’, it’s a pity that your view is considered a minority in Singapore as apathetic youths only care about the glam of the West and Japan. However, they would be set in for perhaps the greatest shock of their lives in a few decades time as they fail to have that foresight. Anyway, what do you think is the stance of the Singapore Govt. on this hot topic of China rising?
Anyway, I think it’s no point wasting time with those whose mindset are fundamentally set in a particular frame. They may not be very different from the Islamic fundamentalists creating ‘trouble’ all over the world now. If one is bent on viewing things only from his own perspectives, while not giving any fair consideration to the opponents, it’s not much point in trying to convince the inconvincible. Let history do the talking for us instead. Anyway, I am trying to post some views on Chinese prominant websites (in Chinese) to give my 2 cents’ ideas. Do you have any suggestions on those which I can access more easily rather than having to give my ID. which I don’t have as a foreign-born 2nd generation Chinese living to your north. Although I am 2nd gen., I am very young as my father came here very late. At a primary school age, he came here only in the 60′s to escape communism in China. Funny thing is, he supports China wholeheartedly even as he told me how everyone had to tighten their belts when he was a kid back in China. He told stories of how his mom could only drank porridge water to save some petty rice for him.
Now, just for exchange of knowledge and to increase understanding of the world, I strongly recommend those who are interested in sharing and exchange of knowledge to watch this documentary by Discovery channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxceQ9-6uHQ
Remember, this is merely to say that the Chinese deserve her fairer share of the credit to world contribution and I stress I think we don’t dare ask for a Fair share, just a fairer share, as I totally understand that it’s naive to request for that when the world is very much dominated largely by the West. It’s not to blow own trumpet or what, but just an attempt to balance the current world view to a fairer position. Most importantly, I hope that people can have a more accurate and balanced world view.
The world is a result of knowledge buildup by all the relevant stakeholders and not just the current dominant powers.
Watch this youtube video by Discovery Channel at the following site:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxceQ9-6uHQ
J Brown
Try to enjoy your short-lived euphoria as much as possible! The halo and glory shall soon disappear!Don’t be boasting too much!It’s not good at all!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeremy-warner/8324147/China-should-enjoy-its-triumph-while-it-lasts.html
YiJiun
Haha, if these wishful thinking analysis of adversaries is anything to go by, I would like to see the downfall of Iran’s regime rather than the American puppet, Egypt. Things don’t go according to your way. I agree that China would undergo a revolution of kind to become a really powerful country that would definitely surpass the US in this century.
One BIG mistake about comparing Japan to China based on the economic development model and perhaps the ‘colour affiliation – both yellow skin’ is that the biggest difference is that China is a giant compared to Japan. It’s room for improvement is Gigantic compared to Japan. At this stage, China is still a ‘poor’ country but Japan is ‘riched to the max and peak’ and is declining already. China has overproduction and property bubble, yes just like Japan. But, China would only likely suffer for a few years for it to bounce back should the bubble burst BECAUSE China is still a Developing country. The overcapacity would be filled up in a few years time, be it not at the current breakneck speed.
China is on a fast developing trajectory and if these ‘analysts’ think it’s gonna suffer a financial crisis like Japan or the US, wait for another 40 years perhaps when it becomes a developed country. The biggest fallacy is to hope for a Japan-like China. In fact, both have very different ‘inner strength’ if you realise. Throughout history, even when Japanese civilisation is at its most vibrant and dynamic stage, it NEVER make a DIRECT POSITIVE REvolutionary contribution to human. In fact, it’s always a mere follower of the overriding power/s all the time, but if you have any little bit of history sense, you would realise China is a very different ‘mixed’ civilisation that could easily overwhelm all the others once it stood on its own feet and it’s not as homogenous as Japan, even as Japan is still occupying some territories gained during its militarist times.
Using history of any sense to judge the possible development in China is the most foolish thing I can say to the analysts. But, if history is anything to go by, I have clearly expressed my views above. I can tell you that Iran would become more and more powerful, along with those Mideast countries that decide not to be puppets anymore (however there would be more freedom which doesn’t equate to being poodles of the US) and the US would find itself ‘overrated’ in time to come when it would be forced to enter into a major war in the Mideast. From another point of view, this would avert a possible armaggaeddon for the world. Why? Just you wait and see and figure out for yourself.
Just mark my words, this world would be ‘unrecognisable’ in a few decades time and it’s not all about ‘Western civilisation improvement’ anymore. If you have the foresight and know how to capitalise on this major revolution, you could be the ‘Bill Gates’ or ‘Warren Buffet’ of that time in time to come. Otherwise, you could fall along with the civilisation that you are lucky to be in so far for you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Anyway, all talk is nonsense. We shall wait and see. I believe in myself.
Many analysts are subjective and biased in their judgement. This is because many are already doctrinated with a certain mindset. Just that you don’t realise. If you have such a strong belief in anything, you would find it difficult to do an ‘objective’ analysis – maybe there’s not even such a thing as ‘objective’. But from here, I could see that many Western sympathizers have been ‘doctrinated’ as much as some ‘Chinese sympathizers’ just that they don’t even realise it, especially evident from the way they criticise the Chinese govt. You may not know, the frog that is getting burnt directly by the fire would stand a better chance of survival than the frog that is being boiled slowly and ‘comfortably’.
What I want to say is, to become the ‘Greatest’ civilisation , you have many challenges to overcome and if you could stand the test by ‘heaven’, you would only grow stronger and nobody could ever stop you. Because one has many challenges ahead, therefore you write him off is the biggest joke of current Western ‘Scientific’ analysis. Remember the Chinese is a species well-known for their endurance and ‘never-say-die’ spirit. They are also practical enough to ensure their long term progress and development , which is why they built the Great Wall (built over one thousand years) for defense of the empire and not the Grand Pyramid that could accelerate the downfall of an empire. During the Qin era, they practically removed a rock mountain, without drills and explosives for a water engineering project, not just by chipping the rocks away bit by bit, but by first burning the rocks until they red hot and then splashing cold water on them. Do you think these are the same guys as the Japanese, who tried to follow ancient Chinese civilisation but ended up in total smoke and ashes and is the most advanced colony, unparalleled in history, of the US even until this day? The Chinese plays ‘Taichi’ which is slow and long with ‘hidden’ strength and offense and not the brute type of ‘boxing’ which is direct, fast and furious and exert all your energy in a short while. I am referring to the real Taichi as a form of martial arts here and not those which are used as a performance.
Maybe you wouldn’t understand until this really happens before your eyes, but that could spell trouble for your next generation and this is not any threat but the ‘law of nature’. Anyway, just wait and Im not sure if you could live to see it for yourself, but you should be able to if you are at least still in your thirties, forties or even fifties.
typhoonq
@Daksha & Sayan Majumdar
I hate to disappoint you with this news. China PLA had just inducted their first batch of China made AH-10 attack helicopter. The pictures are available on http://www.zgjunshi.com. The comparison between the US Apache and AH-10
are written in Chinese.
I like to hear your latest comments on this because the front part of AH-10 resemble the Apache attack helicopter. Do you think this time the Chinese “had also stolen the blue print” from Apache builder Boeing Co.
Daksha Nyshadham
No matter what you say, Chinese Air Force is a joke. You may have all the planes in the world. Only Country and all weather friend of China, that is, Pakistan is using your planes. None of your weapons were tested in any battle. For Pakistani pilots it is an insult and punishment to fly Chinese Planes. I am an Indian settled in US for last twenty five years. I give more marks to Pakistani Pilots than Chinese Pilots. Pakistanis send their pilots to US and UK for training and never send their military officers for China. Pakistani analysts complain about Chinese Planes fly like sick and injured birds. Read Pakistani News Papers across the board. Recently in 1999 India and Pakistanis had a skirmish in Kargil part of Kashmir. You should read Pakistani news papers around that time to get first hand information on Chinese Planes. Only terrorists and Insurgents tested Chinese weapons by killing innocent people. You can get better input of Chinese weapons from International Terrorist Organizations. No ma
Thomas
Hey, Chinese weapons worked fine in 1962. Ask your Dad or watch the war films on YouTube.
Johnny
@Thomas I really don’t know how your comment got through moderation. If you have no fact or point to counter Daksha then please atleast don’t troll by making derogatory remarks which reflect poorly on your upbringing and society. Also, we are talking about J-20s here not about some half-century old war. Please don’t derail the discussion by flaming.