August 1 is Army Day in China. Recent improvements in Sino-US military ties are welcome, but conflicting interests mean tensions might still be inevitable.
In a recent piece in the New York Times, Mike Mullen, Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, stressed the importance of improving Sino-US military relations.
Mullen acknowledged that PLA-Pentagon ties have frequently been characterized by ‘misunderstanding and suspicion,’ and complained that Beijing continues to employ bilateral defence ties as ‘a sort of thermostat to communicate displeasure. When they don’t like something we do, they cut off ties. That can’t be the model anymore.’
Actually, curtailing military exchanges has been a favoured diplomatic mechanism for Beijing and Washington to signal displeasure with a particular development in the overall relationship. The Chinese readily suspended various military visits, exchanges, and other defence contacts after the 1999 Belgrade Embassy bombing, the 2001 EP-3 collision, and in retaliation for the announcement of major US arms sales to Taiwan. Most recently, Beijing froze US-Chinese defence cooperation for the remainder of the Bush administration after the White House notified Congress in October 2008 of its plans to sell Taiwan $6.5 billion worth of arms. Then, the Chinese government suspended senior-level defence visits, rejected US Navy ship requests to take leave at China’s ports, and cancelled meetings on humanitarian assistance, disaster relief, and WMD non-proliferation—disrupting almost a dozen military exchange programmes in the process.
But the United States has also disrupted bilateral military exchanges with China. The Tiananmen crackdown of June 4, 1989, when PLA troops forcibly repressed peaceful democracy activists in Beijing, resulted in the George H. W. Bush administration’s suspending military contracts and defence technology transfers, as well as indefinitely freezing all visits between US and Chinese military leaders. It wasn’t until Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs Chas W. Freeman, Jr. visited China in October 1993 that bilateral military-to-military contacts resumed.
A decade later, members of Congress demonstrated alarm over alleged Chinese espionage in the United States by imposing severe restrictions on PLA-Pentagon contacts. Section 1202 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2000 explicitly directed the defence secretary not to authorize military contacts with China that could lead to inappropriate PLA access to an itemized list of advanced US military capabilities.
External factors unrelated to the military exchanges also contributed to the congressional decision. Members complained about China’s human rights practices (ranging from suppression of civil liberties to allegations of forced abortions and slave labour), Beijing’s sale of ballistic missiles and nuclear technologies to states of proliferation concern, and its policies towards Tibet and Taiwan.
Mullen writes that improving Pentagon-PLA military ties requires developing ‘strategic trust’ between the two militaries through talking – ‘a good bit of misunderstanding between our militaries can be cleared up by reaching out to each other’ and by‘focus(ing) on the things we have in common.’ He sees these mutual interests as protecting maritime commerce from piracy and other constraints, impeding the proliferation of drugs and weapons of mass destruction, and promoting regional stability in the Koreas and Pakistan.
To help this along, Mullen invited Gen. Chen Bingde, the head of the PLA, to visit the United States in May. Mullen went on a reciprocal visit to China in mid-July, and argues that such contacts have been an important tool for overcoming mistrust.
Photo Credit: US Navy
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Jamie
People think the US could beat China in a war only if China tryed to invade America.If America tryed to invade China they would lose alose very badly.In less than 20 years China would win eather way if it went nucular the hole world would die.The only things lefgt would be roaches.China is only going to stand for the American military in there back yard until they are sure they sales to the US are not as important.Besides the fact America can’t invade China they are broak and can’t continue fighting illegal wars.If they thought they could afford a war withj China in money or life they better wake up from there dream.
Thor
Jamie…you have no knowledge of that which you speak of. Give the rest of us a break.
Steve
Thor, just stick with hitting yourself on the head with your mythical hammer.
There a good chap.
a_canadian_observer
@ozivan: By the way, the example you gave about the Vietnamese seems to be a case of pure hard working, i.e., there is no getting advantage in the wholesale industry like the chinese merchants got, which is the point. Please not that I’m not trying to discredit the hard working fact of the chinese. One thing we cannot say for sure is, should a system similar to the chinese wholesaler exist within the Vietnamese, will they take advantage of it?
Sinodefender
Is it a problem that Chinese want to sell to Chinese? Chinese migrants succeeded with frugality and hard work, are they not allowed to reap what they sowed? Chinese help themselves,because they find it easier to deal with own people…
a_canadian_observer
@Sinodefender: You don’t seem to (or refuse to) get it. Nobody said there is anything wrong for chinese to sell to chinese. It’s the chinese discrimination against other groups (i.e. unfair trade) that is the issue here.
Sinodefender
I’m not arguing if it is just or not,but since they monopolize the business others can’t do anything about it.
ozivan
@a_canadian_observer. You’re right. Yup, I did veered off a bit when I spoke of the hardworking migrant Australian Vietnamese, as it did not relate to close guarded wholesaling culture among Chinese merchants, that we are debating about.
John Chan
Jews are famous for close netted discriminatory mercantile practises, that’s why they got so many troubles in Europe. In Canada, monopoly is the nature of the Whiteman mercantile practise. The government sets up laws and agencies to make sure those Whiteman exploitation practises are protected and legal.
Comparing the scale of Chinese disputed business behaviour with the Whiteman outright legalised exploitation is like comparing mosquito leg with elephant leg. Yet someone from Canada denounced Chinese with moral whip while ignoring the scandalous exploitation at home, Canadian surly knows how to raise hierocracy to a new level.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: the point of the discussion is chinese monopoly, not the Jew’s.
bishop
China and USA are not going to go to war in the next 50 years, because no country voluntarily starts a war that it knows it’s going to lose. It’s a fact that China will lose a war with NATO now, and it’s also a fact that the USA/NATO isn’t going to invade China without serious provocation (hey, they have nuclear weapons after all), so … no war.
What if Taiwan declares independence? Let’s see – Taiwan’s GDP is around $450B. China’s GDP is $5T and growing rapidly. Are the Chinese going to ruin a $5T economy to gain a small island and potentially $450B in additional capacity? Nope.
So what’s stopping Taiwan from declaring independence now? Taiwan’s 2 biggest export markets are China (26% of exports) and HK (14%). With total export value of ~$200B, that means that 40% of $200B, or $80B of Taiwan’s GDP (around 20% of their economy) is under Chinese control. So if Taiwan declares independence, they lose $80B per year immediately.
What does Taiwan have to gain from declaring independence now?
Are the Chinese going to just sit by if Taiwan’s crazy enough? Well, if I were war gaming this, I’d say they strangle Taiwan economically if they declare, but they don’t go to war yet because they know they’ll lose. I think they wait 50 years until their army and economy is stronger than the whole of NATO combined, and then they invade.
If you think ‘global public opinion’ is going to stop them 50 years from now when they’re stronger than the whole of NATO put together, I’d say you’re naive. Also, 50 years from now, if you think NATO is going to start a war that it isn’t sure it can win with a mammoth nuclear armed country over an island it has no real interest in, I’d say you’re very naive.
So, no war. Now, or in the future.
Frank
I do not see a war in Taiwan soon because Taiwan is under Chinese control now.
However, I think China will use force if Taiwan falls into the hands of non-Chinese again.
USA will sit and watch that war.
nickatdabeach
I’m writing as honorably discharged from the U.S. Marine Corps, but not a military historian by any means… I ask you to take a look at things from the Chinese perspective… we have them totally surrounded as things stand… from Taiwan to Korea around the continental horn to Afghanistan… how would we feel if they had invaded & occupied Canada, Mexico & Puerto Rico with a few hundred thousand well-armed troops? A sense of ‘unease’ comes to mind. I personally don’t think China has any reason to worry about our military intentions because after all, China could send one million troops to our shores daily for the next three years and hardly make a dent in their population. I hope China remains our friend. We can learn a lot from its 5,000+ years of culture, most of it totalitarian for sure, yet somehow, the Chinese people have survived, and thrived.
ozivan
@nickatdabeach. Hi.. It’s good to see another US man of peace writing in. Look mate, I want to share another experience with you, when you commented :
“… I ask you to take a look at things from the Chinese perspective…”
Some time back, I think it was in 1995, in my first visit to Dalian city in China, Paul Keating was the Prime Minister of Australia. As many would know, Dalian shipbuilding port is the place where China’s first aircraft carrier “Varyag” is being refurbished, and my bus coach actually went by a hill top road clearly overlooking the shipbuilding yard not afar.
Coming to my point, Paul Keating at that time made two sneering upsetting remarks, one was at Malaysian Prime Minister Dr Mahathir for being a “Recalcitrant” , the other was at President Jiang Zemin for China’s tough policies on freedom of movement and emigration. During a long, casual break, me and 2 friends asked a very friendly, intelligent looking and polite Dalian local tour leader (about fourtyish) a number of political questions. Because, we learnt he was an influential local CCP leader.
He said, it was unfair for Keating to make such a remark as the Westerners wanted to take in only dissidents of China into their fold. If the West had good intentions, it should open up its immigration doors to all Chinese of all walks of life. He said that, President Jiang had replied to Keating, (note: we didn’t know because the Western media didn’t reported) that China was more than happy to send millions of Chinese to Australia at your pick and choice, not just the dissidents, in two different routes :
1. Either through the proper immigration channels, and China offered to pay for all the Chinese emigrants’ fares to and settling expenses in Australia,
OR…
2. If Australia or the Western world prefers, China opened its floodgates for emigration. The rich Western countries would then face 30-50 million Chinese sailing in rickety wooden boats across oceans, or even swim across channels like they did to Hong Kong before, or trekked over vast lands to reach Australia & Europe as illegal immigrants. And then, the West would quickly go to the UN Security Council to ask for sanctions against China for irresponsible conduct.
That’s the Chinese view.
A few thousands of illegal immigrant arrivals at our Australian shores per year had already driven us up the wall, what more with millions. Hundreds of thousands of them would probably surround and scramble up the 11 US aircraft carrier groups on their way to America.
Many more views though about US allies around the world which seemed quite sensible to us, but enough for today.
nirvana
@Ozivan,
Sorry for interjecting. I can understand why the Chinese media did not report. In my opinion, it would be far more politically correct for the Chinese stateman to reply to Western diplomats: “I prefer to prevent mass immigration because in a few years my countrymen will feel as happy living in their motherland than abroad”. Then the Chinese citizens would feel less hurt in their pride.
ozivan
@nirvana. I meant, it was the Western media that didn’t report President Jiang’s reply to PM Keating
Frank
“illegal immigrant” is a wrong term to use here.
White europeans were the real illegal immigrant. They killed and raped local people.
Chinese never did such things, therefore, they are always legal.
a_canadian_observer
Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something.
—Plato
megakids
@nickatdabeach
Thank you. You are sensible and well-meaning American. You demonstrated ample empathy in viewing global situation, unlike many anti-China bigots infested in this forum. If you read on, you can spot them quite easily. Cheers!
nirvana
@Nickatdabeach,
Reading you I feel like shouting “God bless America”. May your generals, admirals and politicians listen to soldiers like you.
Henry Fitzroy
So far most commentators have portrayed the US as the good guy and the Chinese the bad guys.Nothing can be further from the truth.The US defence budget is ten times if not one thousand times that of China. Since 1945,the US has gone to war in Korea,Vietnam,Kosovo,Iraq(twice),Afghanistan,etc.The PLA have only gone to war in 1962 and 1979.The US uses the charade of promoting democracy,freedom of right of passage,human rights, etc,to attack other countries.
The PL being weaker compared to US forces,will not fire the first shot.However they are well prepared for any eventuality so that the US wont think that shock and awe as in Iraq is applicable to China.The Pentagon would be in for a nasty surprise if it thinks its stealth bombers with aerial refuelling can attack with immunity.
In short,the US could turn into a banana republic if its deficit continues at the current rate. This is all thanks to the politicians.Of course the cynics would say the Chinese aimed to be the next dominant country.To play this kind of game needs a lot of money and patience.Frankly the Chinese aint up to the task and have too many internal problems besetting them.This is a stratgem by the the Pentagon for more weapons and thus vicious cyle starts all over again benefiiting nobody but the neo cons who have a vested interest in the US arms
industry.
Daniel Canales
Mr. Fitzroy’s comments are interesting, even if absolutely absurd.
* The US defense budget is not 10 times that of China, much less 1000 times.
* China went to war in 1950, in support of one of history’s worst dicatatorships.
* Claiming that US desire to promote democracy is a charade in our US wars, its absolutely at variance with actual US policy, warfighting, and conduct thereof. It’s a false charge, with vicious intent behind it. In every case, the US has supported a government that does, or is capable of providing the people self-determination.
* Neo-cons? Hmm. No one has actually ever found one, but they continue to loom large in leftist imaginations.
* Though I don’t think they will achieve it, the Chinese themselves clearly advertise their intent to be the 21st Century’s dominant country – that’s not made up by anyone else.
* Don’t speak about US military tactics of which you show an exceeding amount of ignorance.
Mr. Fitzroy, your comments have exposed your ignorance. It’s a free country though, so keep yapping away.
nirvana
@Daniel,
The US voted in the UN in favour of the Khmer Rouge (armed by China) for over 10 years. The US used money from narcotics sales to sponsor rebellion in latin america. The record track of US and China states wrongdoings is similar. When it suits them, they make alliance (just like Hilter and Staline). But differently from Hitler, when they have to confront each other, they try to do so by proxy.
No! it has never been Good against Evil, neither Freeworld against Communism. Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Chile, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Ecuador, Ehiopia, Congo, Somalia ect… have learnt the hard lesson. Its all about war games, influence trading (secretly) and arm sellings.
Carlos
@Daniel Canales
I find you views very interesting, especially since your counter points reflect a distinct flaw in the national character of the US. You are demonstrating that morally and politically speaking; the US is still very much an immature state, they only have one view of how the world works, and are so in love with their own myth’s that they will not try to take other people’s viewpoints into consideration, or delve into further details since it would complicate the world. It would also create the possibility that the US would have to review all their decisions and perhaps find that they have been acting against their own beliefs since their inception as a country. Let’s look at your responses as a demonstration.
- The US defense budget is not 10 times that of China, much less 1000 times. (This is an outright rejection without facts. Figures were provided by the author of this article and the original responder, but you have not provided any counter veiling points.
- China went to war in 1950, in support of one of history’s worst dicatatorships. (This is true, however, China at the time was threatened with nuclear attack and North Korea had been overrun. Korea could have been seen as springboard for invasion against another communist country. The fact that the majority of Chinese supported the communists is of course irrelevant, after all, their communists.)
- Claiming that US desire to promote democracy is a charade in our US wars, its absolutely at variance with actual US policy, warfighting, and conduct thereof. It’s a false charge, with vicious intent behind it. In every case, the US has supported a government that does, or is capable of providing the people self-determination. (The people of Cuba, and Venezuala support their left/communist governments. In fact, the government of Venezuala was elected, so why hate them and embargo them? There also were numerous left leaning governments in Latin and South America that were overthrown with American support to be replaced with right wing kleptocracies, aka democracy of the rich, or fascists. What if Taiwan holds a referendum and decides to join China under the same guise as Hong Kong? what will the US do then?)
Neo-cons? Hmm. No one has actually ever found one, but they continue to loom large in leftist imaginations. (Their called the tea party, after a group of immature rebellious mal contents who wanted support against the French and Natives by their British parents, but didn’t want to pay for it.)
- Though I don’t think they will achieve it, the Chinese themselves clearly advertise their intent to be the 21st Century’s dominant country – that’s not made up by anyone else. (China will be dominant in Asia, maybe not in the same fashion as the US is dominant in North America, but their claims cannot be dismissed out of hand since everyone is dependant on trade with China, and it is China that is currently keeping the US afloat. If the next generation of Chinese leaders, or the generation after that think the world is too hostile and decide to flex their political and economic muscle, the consequences for US hegemony over Asia would be catastrophic. Also, China would rather get along and trade with everyone else since wars are wasteful.)
- Don’t speak about US military tactics of which you show an exceeding amount of ignorance. (Pride goeth before the fall. China is not to be underestimated, which is why the Pentagon is worried. If the US decides to go to war with China, it will be their first major conflict ever that the US may lose very badly. Besides, nobody knows the true capabilities of their opponents systems until the shooting has started, so assuming that the US will easily overwhelm China is premature.)
- Mr. Fitzroy, your comments have exposed your ignorance. It’s a free country though, so keep yapping away. (It is a free country, so Mr.Fitzroy has the right to his views, even if they are cautionary, and you have just demonstrated that you love your myths too much and should take a sanity check every once in a while. In a truly democratic and free country, it’s not a bad idea to look to your enemies for new views, they may have something that you can learn as well.)
@ Nirvana
I have found that Americans are more opinionated than understanding, so the way things work elsewhere could be better. Even the British Parliamentary system seems to be better since at least stuff gets done instead of self important busy bodies just sitting around and trying to hold their own country hostage.
John Chan
@Carlos:
Used to be I think USA 3 branch government system is the best. The debt ceiling farce exposes all the pitfalls of the American political system. Now I believe British parliamentary system is definitely better than the American system.
Rightly or wrongly British parliament can get thing done in a clear direction, not like the American system that would decay a major decision into a no clear direction as shown in the debt ceiling farce.
Henry Fitzroy
The US defence budget is at least five times that of China’s. Sorry to have ruffleds Daniel’s feathers.I still maintain the US promotion of democracy etc is a cover to attack other countries.
The US spends too much on defence which has grown into a monster . If it aint careful ,it could turn into a banana republic.As for the Korean war,peace talks were supposed to start around April 1951.It was sabotaged by MacArthur. He ordered a major offensive. The Chinese were stunned. The general wanted to become a war hero but was dismissed cotemptuously by President Truman who
did not seek the destruction of Red China for fear of provoking Stalin in Europe.
As for tactics it is obvious the US wont commit to ground war but would wish to unleash their conventional and nuclear power.
I suggest you read about US nclear policy on the internet. Of course it aint official US policy but at least 50 % of it is.
Sinodefender
Still U.S. military spending is $698,105,000,000 and China’s is 114,000,000,000 which is at least double… China helped North Korea because they don’t want an American proxy state right next to them and even MacArthur wanted to bomb China…
U.S. just installs dictators that are sympathetic to the U.S. like in the Middle East and Latin America. People are to smart to advocate neo-colonialism in public. China doesn’t want to take over the world like Red Dawn,they just want to protect their own lands.U.S. is spending to much on their military, that’s why spending is going to be cut for military…
nirvana
@Henry Fitzroy,
I has never been Good against Evil, but two evil military superpowers vying to dominate the world. However, to the credit of the US citizens, I must say that they have had some success in curbing the hawkish faction in their sucessive governments. When Chinese citizens can speak out as loudly as their US counterparts, without being crushed by tanks, there will be hope we can avoid Cold War II.
roland
Actually there was another sort of war between China and Soviet in 1969: Sino–Soviet border conflict
Kung Pao
@Henry Fitzroy
A quick question: If China is the most powerful country, the world would be a better place ?
John Chan
@Kung Pao:
I believe China will help the world to be a better place. Its non-interference policy is way better than a policy of bombing and killing in the name of democracy and human rights.
Are you a practitioner of Semmelweis reflex?
Kung Pao
I’m very flexible, Chan ! You don’t need to convince me 100%, just say something that makes sense I would shift my position.
The china’s behaviour on SCS is pretty much a snapshot of how the world would look like if China is no 1.
If you swap US into the position of China for a moment. I do not believe for a second US would claim 80% of the Sea; US navy would beat and rob Vietnamese fishermen.
I’m not saying America is perfect; quite a bit of room to improve. But relatively speaking, America is better than China.
Sinodefender
How exactly is America better than China?
a_canadian_observer
@Sinodefender:
“How exactly is America better than China?”
Well, let’s see:
1. America doesn’t put melanine in baby milk like in china.
2. America respect IP law, unlike china that has no respect for other’s intelectual propertie.
3. America alows her citizens to criticize their government; there are plenty of examples of what happen to people who criticize their government in china.
4. America respects human rights, unlike in china.
5. America doesn’t schedule execute prisoners to sell parts; china does.
6. America fosters independent thinking for her citizens; china indotrinates her citizens with false information.
7. America contributes the most to world charities; china contributes nothing (although china is #2 economy in the world).
Need I spell out more?
John Chan
@Kung Pao:
Did you read the comment from nickatdabeach above? Please do, it puts things into proper perspective.
Actually I can bet that you won’t change your position at all no matter what I say. China just tried to stop further erosion of its territory in the South China Sea, it was labelled aggressive, China Threat, etc. all imaginable bad names. China is so weak that it even dares not to evict those squatters encroached its territories in the SCS, who only possess pitiful weapons, I wondered maybe all those fancy weapons the PLA has are really fake.
Probably you don’t know much about the USA, more than 80% of USA homeland were acquired via violence, and claimed the jurisdiction of all Atlantic and Pacific oceans with the Monroe Doctrine. USA nearly blew the whole world up because USSR put some firecrackers on an island in a sea that American called it backyard.
You should ask Cuban fishermen first about the behaviour of US Coast Guard before you claimed that USA is angel.
Kung Pao
Politics and culture don’t mix, in my view. Two years ago I traveled to Kowloon-HK with a friend of mine, Chinese. I enjoyed the trip, the food, the people. Cathay flight attendants were elegant and nice, they turned me on; in-flight meal was not bad.
To me, Vietnamese, Chinese or any other people there’re always good and bad sides. You can’t say Chinese is bad, Viet is good or vice versa. Don’t generalize ! you should go case by case. But as far as the SCS issues are concerned China is a very bad guy.
Most of your comment are nonsense, especially the last one (US coast guard). Try harder to come up with more striking facts, Chan. But I don’t blame you since I understand this is your full time job, a paying job.
On the other hand, I’m a just part-time volunteer, no money. I’m driven by passion. That’s the main difference between two camps.
roland
I agree with Kung Pao:
Sometimes I feel like they (John, Frank and others) insult our intellectuals. By saying anything w/o sources/proof that they lose credibility on whatever they state/say.
They indeed must try harder.
John Chan
@Kung Pao:
You are no different from all other anti-China bigots came before you, slander China prejudicially while claiming you are impartial and objective.
Instead of making meaningful contribution to the article, you attack other bloggers who happen to have opinions that are not to your liking viciously right off the gate by saying the other bloggers’ comments are nonsense. That only proved you are closed-minded and cannot tolerate any view that does not fit you bigotry mindset.
Labelling other bloggers baselessly is the typical trademark of anti-China clique, because they have nothing better to say.
If you came here with a purpose, you better make you comment count, and start to make your comments meaningful. Bad mouthing other bloggers and China only show you are ugly, bigotry and ignorant.
a_canadian_observer
@Kung Pao: This means John Chan has lost the debate to you.
Blue Dot
@a_canadian_observer:
Most of Chinese bloggers are unprofessional !
Marcus
1. Civil war
2. War in Tibet
3. Korea
4. The Cultural Revolution
5. Sino-Vietnamese border war
6. Sino-Soviet border conflict
7. Sino-Indian war
You are wrong, sir. You are intellectually discredited, and have been shown either too ignorant in the matter to contribute meaningfully, or a vindictive, lying person spreading propaganda.
John Chan
@Marcus:
What are the linkage between the 7 items you listed and the statement you smeared Henry Fitzroy? It seems you have the intellectual difficulty to express idea logically.
All 7 items were the struggles that China fought for defending the nation and independence, what are the problems? Do you mean China cannot defend itself?
Kung Pao
I heard that during the VN war some Chinese troops were on the ground in North VN. Was that true, Chan ?
I read Frank’s comment the other day he said China is not afraid of heavy casualty. Sounds like China is ready to reduce its population, and war is an option.
John Chan
@Kung Pao:
You said you are open-minded, it seems you are here not to debate the article, but to slender China on purpose.
Is USA no longer telling VN war to their young anymore in the school? Or is USA trying to wipe out that part of ugly history from their record for good? How can you don’t know all those well-known facts? Please tell me what is the difference between USA and its lackeys supporting SV, and USSR and China supporting NV?
Helping comrades to expel the USA imperialism was the call during those days. I guess you are not old enough to be drafted and to be a cannon fodder in VN. Unfortunately China’s sacrifice was a waste, the return of China’s sacrifice is a hostile Vietnam.
You should ask the veterans who were in the wars with China before blowing hot air. Kung Pao, which war Marcus listed matters most to you?
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan:
USA is not trying to wipe out the US-VN history. There are plenty of info/books out there for everyone to access.
china sacrificed for VN’s independence? you make me laugh. china’s characteristic is selfish (just research what charitable contribution the #2 economy has done and you will see), she does not do anything without benefit. In the case of VN war, the benefit was to have a little communist sister state next to her as a buffer. china’s dream was also to expand its influence all the way down SAE, but it was a good thing that didn’t materialize.
Kung Pao
Chan: “…the return of China’s sacrifice is a hostile Vietnam”: yes and no.
After victory in1975, Com VN washed their hands of China and walked away since Soviet Union was still around. And when china tried to teach VN a lesson for invading Cambodia, without hesitation Hanoi stood up and gave china a bloody nose. This must have been very painful.
But then the unthinkable happened in Europe; Com VN was like a naughty runaway kid, all of sudden ending up at the dead end. Nowhere else to go, they had no choice but to crawl back to daddy. China: “bad boy ! you belong to me ! “.
The collapse of USSR turned out to be a windfall for china, kind of “your loss is my gain”.
Much has been said about how China’s squeezed VN since then. In short, “they came they conquered !”.
Also Chan: “Helping comrades to expel the USA imperialism …”.
Mao to HCM: here are the weapons, go kill USA imperialism for us. Kill also your siblings, you hate them huh ? I can tell.
HCM: We’re born to kill.
John Chan
@a_camadian_observer:
Smearing China via conjecture of a prejudice mind surely is in full display in your comment.
My constructive comments on the USA seems giving Canadians a chance to show their loyalty to their southern de factor colonial master. Canadian is putting his body in front of Americans to stop the bullets, just like Canadian is letting the American to have the first right to their water and oil as well.
Kung Pao was showing sign that he did not know anything about Vietnam War that’s why I asked “Is USA trying to wipe out the US-VN history.”
Canadian is in every bombing and killing that the American conducted, only such loyal lapdog will automatically thing other nations will behave like her.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: I will let the clear-minded, non-CCP bloggers judge mine and your posts for themselves. As for whe you’ve just written here, it looks disgusting. You complaint about people smearing china when in fact you did exactly the same.
I take it as a sign you’ve lost the debate. You and other CCP-bloggers have shown the world how great china is, an empty, bullist, selfish, small-man big guy, full of fakes.
Steve
Marcus, do you mean he is Chinese?
danf
Mr. Fitzroy’s comments above represent a major advantage China enjoys over the US and also an influence that makes it more likely that the US and China will come into conflict.
I refer to his and the left wing of the democratic parties peculiar self loathing which seems to express itself in a general, but very real rejection of American power and influence in the world.
Don’t worry yourself Mr. Fitzroy, America is disarming itself as fast as it can. Our forces will soon be withdrawing from vast swaths of the world. I’m sure you will be pleased with the results.
Sam
@Henry:
The reason why the US is what it is, is simple. Currency of last resort. You can go to any country in the world today, produce a dollar bill and get the local currency without too much trouble to buy dinner there. Try doing that with a renminbi/yaun. The Chinese answer to this. Just give us a few years and at our rate of annexation, most countries as we know them will have a single name, China. Then you can do the same thing with a renminbi/yuan.as you can with the dollar today.
Note to John Chan: “We have a strange phenomenon here, all the wholesale rapping, hacking, and looting in the anti-Chinese riots sponsored by the local governments in SEA is lightly excused as some violent incidents, and even the anti-Chinese discriminatory government policy is ignored. All those hideous acts are well known and documented.”
Sources my boy, sources! And remember the Xinjiang 13 and the 18,811 millionaires.
Henry E. Samonte
We should watch what the Chinese is doing. The economic expansion of China is like a Trojan horse. It gives the host country the benefit of investments, yet, this countries should not make the mistake of adopting the Chinese as their citizen. If so, ultimately, the Chinese can easily dominate their Commerce and Industries through unfair competitions. And the second or third generation Chinese will take over their government. This is what happened to the Philippines. Way back 1950s, thousands of Han Chinese illegally entered the Philippines. To avoid harassment from the Philippine Immigration, some of these Chinese married unwary Filipinas with an ulterior motive just to get a permanent residence status. In span of 10 years, the Chinese has taken almost all the businesses from the Filipinos the Chinese does their business as an Institution. Chinese businesses are supported by their banks, their marketing expertise, and the price of wholesale is entirely different when a Filipino buys from Chinese wholesaler compared to a Chinese buyer. The price is extremely different to the disadvantage of the Filipino merchants. Third, Filipino merchants engage as an individual investor against the Chinese Institution. This finally brought the death knee to Filipino entrepreneurship. Finally, the Chinese which is highly organized and unlimited financial resources competed against Filipino politicians. Now, the Philippine government is dominated by Chinese. Filipinos are slowly becoming a second class citizen in their own country. The Chinese in the Philippine Legislative Branch is also about to change the Philippine Constitution to give unlimited rights to foreign Chinese like 100% Chinese capitalization, the rights of foreign Chinese to own Philippine lands, and lately, the Chinese in the Philippine government has sold away all government lands and assets to the Chinese businessmen. There is no more left for the future Filipino generation to call their own.
John Chan
@Henry E Smonte:
Your story likes Alex the Wonderland, it is fascinating. What happens to your military, police, and intelligence services, are they controlled by the Chinese too?
megakids
@Henry E. Samonte
Thanks for the detailed account. I guess what you said about “unfair competitions” you mean diligence, hard working, savings, focus on education, family unity and etc. are uniquely Chinese, and therefore they were “unfair” to indigenous Filipinos. The Chinese should abandon all these traditional values. That’s your arguments. You can easily draw the same conclusion from Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam.
a_canadian_observer
@megakids: The values you mentioned: diligence, hard working, savings, focus on education, family unity and etc. are commendable if posessed by any group. What he refered to as unfair is the wholesale industry which favors the chinese merchants with a big advantage over the Filipinos.
ozivan
@a_canadian_observer. We have to go back to the early days of Chinese migration to South East Asia well before WW2.
There is a hidden, unspoken truth among the grandfathers of these Chinese merchants (especially not to be said in front of the indigenous groups)and carried down to generations below, that in pre-war days early forms of business credit were already in practice,and many of the indigenous groups who took goods from the Chinese wholesalers subsequently spent their money on cars, beautiful houses, a few house servants, and acquired a few more wives, thereby defaulting in their payments to their creditors. Generally, they were poor managers of money.
The old Chinese great grandfathers/mothers !? It’s was common then to see them lived frugally, worked 16 hours day 7 days a week, ride on bicycles, carried their goods on tri-cycles or carts, yet lived in extended families type of homes where 3 or more families stayed under the same roof,the womenfolks doing all the household chores without house servants, in simple houses, ate simple, saved all, spent much on children’s education, paid their debts on time, etc. resulting in accumulation of wealth.
The Chinese wholesalers factored in a higher costs on the indigenous because of the increased risk of bad debts. The early days of my career as an Accountant, were with two old, very established British trading houses in South East Asia, and I realised very early that indigenous business groups went bust easily, even though their credit terms were the same given to the Chinese merchants.
In Australia today, the Vietnamese family businesses worked 14 hours day, 7 days week, dominating in many fruit and vegetable markets, and lately they are taking on the Woolworths & Coles (2 largest supermarket chain in Australia) by placing their fruit & veggie outlets right next to the big boys, selling their goods 30% cheaper. While this is going on, their children and grandchildren are graduating profusely as doctors, dentist, pharmacists, engineers, etc etc. These are the Australian success stories…of the VIETNAMESE.
Generally, migrants had to work harder than the indigenous people.
Hope Henry E. Samonte can understand them. The Filipino indigenous (like the Thais) have been the most tolerant and kind to the migrant Chinese resulting in very high assimiliation, much less so in Indonesia or Malaysia.
a_canadian_observer
@ozivan: I agree with you analysis. However, I still want to make the point re. strong favoritism within the chinese wholesale industry. I’ve come to know this from taklking to some chinese Vietnamese friends in Canada. They said, there is no way for non-chinese merchants to buy produce if you’re not chinese and, especially if you don’t speak chinese. The producers are located in places like Thailand, the chinese merchants can get produce shipped to them, at a great price, to sale and pay for the cost later. The point also is that this practice is going on everywhere, not just in Asia.
Cyrus
I am Filipino and I have friends of Chinese Ancestry. It’s just that Chinese help there own, if you are Chinese then you can buy goods from other Chinese at a very cheap price compared to the price they are selling the Filipino’s. That is their way of helping their fellow Chinese.
That way the Chinese could save money, Filipino’s are not frugal by nature. It is true what Ozivan said also, our ancestors even have Chinese servants. While Rizal and the rest of the ilustrado’s are in Spain or Europe Studying the Chinese are making money.
Now the fault does not lie with them for being successful and we must not fault them. Just as we Filipino’s are helping our Family in finding a jobs or doing a favor to our friends. They are doing the same to all Chinese not just a chosen few.
nirvana
To the defense of the small Chinese businessmen, I would like to point out that it has been their traditional way to do business through networks of relatives. Their implicit arbitration clause is often “an uncle of my father knows the father of your uncle”. Because, mostly they make verbal deals. I don’t know about the big corporates practice.
Passerby
@a_canadian_observer
@Henry E. Samonte
All this talk about Chinese wholesale distrubution is nonsense. Frustrated US policy makers and business representatives have been crying “foul” for the past 60+ years over the difficulties in penetrating the Japanese market. They believe that a web of formal and informal Japanese trade barriers within the Japanese distribution practices prevent US companies from getting a fair chance to sell their products in Japan, it remains true up to today, August 2011.
People forget that Chinese in South East Asia all started from a position of pennilessness; having to do busness at the mercy of local populations, local politicians, local police and authorities, all acted in open discrimination against Chinese in general and tiny Chinese mom and pop stores in particular. Despite all these, Chinese endured and prospered. They didn’t all of a sudden come out to dominate the markets, they paid for their success with their sweat, blood and yes, even lives. They were at times massacred becuase the locals were simply jealous to the point of committing murders.
a_canadian_observer
@Passerby: It’s very arrogant of you to bluntly stated that our talks are nonsense.
I ignore your first paragraph because the discussion is about chinese, not Japanese.
In your 2nd paragrapgh, I agree with you that the chinese are hardworking. Still the focus of the discussion is still chinese wholesale discrimination against other groups, which happens even in North Amarica.
I know that there were some violent incidents in Malaysia and Indonesia, however, have you ever bothered to seriously research the subject to find out the truth rather than let your chinese emotional tie dictates your judgement? As for Vietnam, please provide a proof that the chinese were massacred.
John Chan
We have a strange phenomenon here, all the wholesale rapping, hacking, and looting in the anti-Chinese riots sponsored by the local governments in SEA is lightly excused as some violent incidents, and even the anti-Chinese discriminatory government policy is ignored. All those hideous acts are well known and documented. Instead of denouncing those barbaric behaviours, Passerby who raised such facts was accused of fabrication without doing serious research and making things up due to his Chinese emotional tie that skewed his judgement.
Yet a blogger accusing Chinese bad behaviour with hearsays was taken as truth without doing serious research, and was used to lecture Chinese with moral high ground. Canadian sense of right and wrong surely is unique and is full of prejudice against Chinese if a_Canadian_observer is a representative of Canadians.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan:
1. show us the documentations, you mentioned.
2. You accused me of not telling the truth about the chinese, here are some proofs:
http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=40&pst=679893
http://www.davekopel.com/env/entibet.htm
http://palaceoftruth.blogspot.com/2009/03/chinese-atrocity-in-tibet.html
http://nvonews.com/2009/05/12/tibetan-escapees-bear-witness-to-chinas-atrocities-in-tibet/
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
Henry E. Samonte
War is inevitable. There will always be a final conflict wherein no one is a winner. Human civilization has always been this way. The next war is over overlapping interest on natural resources, and lack of food.
TamaraJu
Pay your debts!!! is what China say to us and we havent. A we now have a AAA credit raing? When did that happen? We already pissed them off for many reason but the lastest one is when that Dali-Lama guy visted the white houe after CHina stressed that they did not wantted us to meet with him and watching Chinas good friend Russia walk away from the table becaue their done. america and the zionist has been murdering scientist also to keep their wicked ways. what do think is about to happen?
William Eaton
China won’t attack the US or go to war with the US. Why? (1) It would ruin the Chinese economy. (2) The U.S. could simply seize all Chinese assets in the U.S. (3) Declare the U.S. debt to China null and void as part of the war effort. (4) The U.S. military would destroy and seize Chinese assets around the world, including natural resources that China needs. (5) The U.S. would arm every idiotic splinter group, ethnic group, etc. that surrounds China and is China proper, none of whom like the Chinese, this lead to wars that would last for years and drain China of money and resources. (6) It would force Japan, South Korea, India, in fact almost every Asian country to increase arms purchases, production, and bring not only closer to the U.S., but even form a military coalition against China.
The fact is China, unlike the U.S., is surrounded by enemies and fair weather friends. The Russians cannot be trusted at all, and will play everyone against each other for their own gain and to keep China away from territories and resources they both want. China might get Taiwan back, big deal! For what it would cost the Chinese it would not be worth it. The U.S. also has a major advantage in natural resources, including the largest reserves of coal and oil shale on earth, which can both be converted into oil. China needs oil supplies brought in from places like Russia and the Middle East. How can China depend on those supplies being there in any war with the U.S.?
All this trash talk sounds great, it might make the big wigs in the celestial kingdom thump their chest about far they have come, but when you view the big picture, the forest and not a few trees, the United States has several major natural advantages over China, and despite the “down” times the U.S. is suffering right now, don’t mistake that for weakness. We are not that weak…otherwise the Chinese military would not be taking so big. Make yourself look strong when you are weak….Chinese reading this know where that cam from….right…
John Chan
@William Eaton:
What is stopping you to do all your hot air? You should run for president to replace Obama.
William Eaton
@ John Chen
Just stating reality. I said China is not going to go to war with the USA if the folks running China have any common sense. China can get most of what they want by taking their time, doing things slowly (over a hundred years or so), etc. The problem is China has a history messing up a good thing, shooting themselves in the foot, showing their card too early, etc. All the signs right now point to Beijing blowing it like they always have. Chinese are great people, no doubt. If the folks in Shanghai or Hong Kong were running things China would be sitting pretty. But alas they are not…
ozivan
@William Eaton. This must be the “New American Dream”
The American baby boomers built the great America through hardwork, good strong values and innovations. Their children spent it upholding idealism of democratic values, world’s policeman and human rights, and the grandchildren are now broke.
The grandchildren are scheming to rob the rich.
This would be a great storyline for a new great bestselling American movie.
Cyrus
Hi Ozivan,
He is just saying that a war is not in China’s best interest. They can blockade the Oil from the middle east and force the Chinese Navy to their ports pretty much like what happened to the German Navy in WWII. They will starve your Armed Forces of Oil just like Japan when they conquered China.
US can and will also take over the debt they have with you and write it off to fund a war effort to preserve “democracy”. No State have no enemies and they will come popping out left and write when they will see that there is a possibility of defeating China.
Though, what he says has credibility we could never know since China also have Nuclear Weapon’s and that must be factored in as a deterrent. It would also cause the United State a good number of casualty if War with China do takes place and would now be depending on Public Opinion if it holds up with a war with China. Casualty Report have a huge impact in a Democracy like the United States but would have little effect in China, just like what happened with the Vietnam War.
So Cal Mike
Reader comments are fascinating.
They don’t seem to factor in rude and aggressive PLA behavior toward South Korea, Japan, Taiwan and even Vietnam. In asserting itself, China has brought these countries closer than they have been in decades.
Frank
“Cold War was US vs Soviet”.
“If the humanity in us does not win,…, then indeed we all deserve to go to hell.”
So, do you think Americans would ever learn from the cold war and having a little more humanity?
Or do you think Americans will go to hell?
Frank
“Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Congo, Ethiopa, Somalia, Angola, Chile, Nicaragua, Guatemala,… the list is too long to be complete.”
Now, Iraq and Afghan.
American’s hands were there in all these countries.
Let us see which country wants to become America’s dog.
Hope not Vietnam again.
nirvana
@Franck
“American’s hands were there in all these countries”.
Sure, by definition of “Cold War”. Would you agree with me that China did give the US a good hand too?
Now let’s examine Afghanistan: The US has a legitimate self-defence case and it did not act unilaterally (pity China did not offer to help here).
As for Irak, G.W. Bush had to fool his countrymen with the WMD threat stratagem because he did not have a nine-dotted-line-like claim. Ok that’s ironical, but my point is: when the military beast is out of control, there is no limit to evilness.
Frank
People are suffering in Iraq and Afghan.
So in your logic, Americans should go to hell?
nirvana
@Frank
Since I said “If the humanity in us does not win,…, then indeed we all deserve to go to hell.”, you insist on asking me whether I think “Americans should go to hell”. Let me answer you then:
Although at times, the US Government has been very evil, I believe that there are a lot of American citizens who have more humanity in them than people like you. I hope that you are not the spokeperson of the state that you pretend to defend. If you are, keep doing until Chinese citizens that are proud of their great culture shut you up. As far as I am concerned, as I can not stand people calling other nations “dogs”, this is the last time I am replying to you.
a_canadian_observer
@Frank:
Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something.
—Plato
a_canadian_observer
@nirvana: If Frank calls Vietnam dog, then Frank is technically a dog as well. Why? Frank is chinese Vietnamese (now turning his back on the country of his birth). These people came from Guangdong, same Bai-Yueh people as the Vietnamese.
These people suffer from inferior complex. Now they think that china is becoming strong, they just want to be associated with something powerful. Little do they know, that respect is earn through good deeds and big hearts which china doesn’t possesses neither one.
ozivan
@Frank & Nirvana. Nirvana said : …I cannot stand people calling other nations “dogs”, this is the last time I am replying to you.
Dear Frank, I hope I can appeal to you to desist or at least be more discrete when using that term.
Nirvana is right.
Henry E. Samonte
The Republic of the Philippines is the frequent victim of China’s abuses. On the area of conflict, the South China sea, most of the time, China would bully the Fiipino Fishermen by flying their fighter jets as low as 20 feet at a super sonic speed over the fragile Filipino fishing boat. This is almost like exploding a 1 ton bomb on a small boat. The shock wave is just terrible. In another instance, Chinese makes a pot shot with live ammos towards Filipino Fishermen The problem is that the fishing ground is just 70 miles from Philippine shore while it is 450 nautical miles from China. How is that?
ozivan
@Henry E. Samonte. Philippines has been screaming mad over some rock islands with China, calling China a bully, calling in US intervention, demanding that China submit to the International Court of Justice.
And now, I discovered more of this Philippines’s claim to Sabah, once part of the Sulu Kingdom & Islands of Philippines.
Some background to outsiders, Sabah became a state of Malaysia since 1963 when Malaysia was formed. Sabah has 73,631km2 of landmass, rich in timber resources, oil and gas deposits with a tiny population. It was leased by the Sulu Sultanate to the British for 5000 Malaysian dollars per annum for 99 years. The Americans, who were the sovereign ruler of Philippines at one time,and when the 99 years lease were soon due, in 1930 had held a convention with the British and had reclaimed that Sabah is part of Philippines, to which the British has never objected by far to the US.
Before, I thought that Philippines has dropped her claims to Sabah in 1986. Nope, I have just discovered that Philippines has only put it to the backburner.
Philippines has, on record, demanded many times for Sabah’s jurisdiction to be referred to the International Court Of Justice. Malaysia just ignored them.
My point ? Where is President Aquino the 3rd’s perspective !? You’re helpless even before Malaysia over a huge piece of rich property in Sabah, yet you’re asking for a fight with China over a few rocks. There is the gold before you, yet you fight for the bronze.
Smart countries like Brunei & Malaysia (and pre-Benigno Aquino Filipino Presidents) are using quiet diplomacy over the SCS.
Wake up..oh President Noynoy Aquino the 3rd…oh..wake up !!?? Don’t be a spoilt brat.
Cyrus
Yes we have a claim with Sabah, but we are concerned with Spratly group because of security concern. If you look at the map Spratly is to near home to give us an ease if it falls under Chinese Jurisdiction. Also the Problem with the 9 dash line Policy because China is practically claiming all of Western Philippine EEZ.
That is why Philippines is fighting it’s hardest against China because if China will have its way with the 9 dash line then it will seriously compromise Philippine Defenses. Sabah has always been a point of contention between Malaysia and the Philippines but we have a joint patrol between Sabah and Tawix2 and there has been no accident that escalated the issue with Malaysia unlike in Spratly.