With its military dominance being hollowed out by China, the agreement over access to Australian bases makes sense to the U.S. But what about Canberra?
U.S. President Barack Obama’s sheen may have worn off somewhat in the United States, but not in Australia. Yet amid the handshaking and backslapping, the photo opportunities and exultations of shared values, interests and history, it’s easy to overlook the fact that Obama’s trip “down under” is driven by cold strategic logic: to sell Australians on accepting a greater burden on behalf of their alliance with the United States.
That process has begun with a major enhancement of military cooperation between the two countries, to be concentrated in Australia’s North West. The arrangement grants the U.S. military greater access to Australian bases, particularly airfields, as well as providing for more extensive training, ship visits and exercises, and the forward deployment of a small detachment of U.S. Marines. It also covers the prepositioning of materiel – fuel, ammunition and spare parts – creating the foundations of a latent staging point for the U.S. military in the Indian Ocean.
For many Australians, an enhanced U.S. presence in Australia is a beguiling prospect. Not only is it seen as a welcome symbol of Washington’s enduring strength and resolve, but also as a more tangible expression of U.S. strategic commitment.
The reality is somewhat different. In fact, Washington’s sudden interest in Australian real estate says less about its resilience than its relative decline. In particular, the quest for new bases reflects the way in which China’s growing power has already begun hollowing out U.S. military dominance, pushing back the boundaries of U.S. primacy.
Indeed, while the United States has spent the past decade losing wars and squandering power, China has been studiously undercutting U.S. advantages across virtually every sphere of policy: economic, diplomatic and strategic. No longer the quiescent child it was when the United States took its eye off the ball, China has grown into a boisterous teenager – and has plenty of growing still to do. With the transformation of Asia’s security order well underway, Washington now finds itself trying to reinvigorate its strategic presence in the face of a putative rival over whom its leverage has been greatly diminished.
Still, why the specific interest in Australia? Three reasons predominate.
The first reason is largely technical: over the past two decades, China has accumulated a formidable array of precision guided strike capabilities, namely long-range ballistic and cruise missiles, which can be launched from sea, air and land. These have been woven into an offensive war-fighting doctrine that places an operational premium on their use early and en-masse – and not just against U.S. ships at sea. Since U.S. bases in Japan, Korea and even Guam are increasingly at risk of being saturated by Chinese missiles at the outset of a conflict, they no longer constitute an indefinitely reliable basis from which the United States can project power.
Photo Credit: White House
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This article seems to be written for an era that has just past – this decade is about stabilising forces, not power projection. The days of hard power and blunt force are over – economic boundaries are much more fluid, and the interconnections much more all-encompassing for militaries to behave as they did before.
Sure, when the world was nice and simple – where one country and a consolidated resource and power base that you could just walk in and take – then using a leviathan force to stamp it’s boot down was a smart move. But those days are over. Now you have countries and economic connections inter-twined with each other – which then extends to those who influence their political power bases; so if you use a big leviathan force to stomp on it, you’re going to get your fingers burnt.
So back to the point: the US is positioning itself as a stabilising force in the region to ensure a smooth transition for an economic rebalancing. Hence why you see a military balancing in the region away from large strike forces, towards spread out reactive forces – and this recent move is a manifestation of that motive.
JUSTSAYNO
It looks like there will be a new cold war between the US and China. Unlike the last one where USSR lost due to economic disadvantages, the more likely result of this war is that the world economy will go down the toilet.
Countries like Japan, Korea, and Australia run billions of surpluses trading with China. When China’s economy suffers due to inevitable conflicts with the US, these countries will have their own occupy wall st as their unemployment rate soar. US and European economy which are already suffering will unlikely to have any better trade relations with Asian nations. What will likely to happen is that both US and China will spend far more on their military and both eventually will go bankrupt.
DownRedChina
I agree. Who is the bad guy? Everybody is looking at red communist China. None of nations in Asian like China. Only 2 countries in this world are really China closed allied: North Korea and Iran and remember this: they are axis of evil. Definitely it’s a up hill battle for China and the future doesn’t look bright for China. China miscalculated by claiming almost SCS. And based on that faulty claim, they harassed/killed/intimidated smaller neighbors. China had done the damage to their image and nothing they can do to fix it. The world will be a better place without China. Justice is on US side so US will prevail.
So let ask this question openly to everyone:
What side should you be on?
Huang
” The good/the bad/and the ugly “,Most people in this World are good. You are non of the above and in fact, you are a character with nothing but bitterness you believe was caused by China. Of course,there are a number of others sharing the same destructive path you are heading as we speak. Its all about choices. You choose to blame China for your own problems because you have no ability to understand your problems in order to solve them. Sitting lazily and complaining repeatedly about how bad China is only make you more bitter not better. Its time to earn what you think you deserve and not demanding others to hand them to you because of your cheap-talks. Final verdict, the World will be a much better place WITHOUT liabilities like you.
ozivan
@a_canadian_observer. George Bush started the culture of labelling of countries as axis of evil. A wrong thing to do against those who are not compliant to US.
Likewise, are you aware that millions of Arabs and Muslims in the world are also labelling USA as ” SATAN ” ?
a_canadian_observer
I’m definitely NOT on the axis of evil.
John Chan
But you are on the Axis Alliance.
Tom Thumb
More appropriately, USA stands for “UNDER SATAN’S ARMY!”
Like the show starring Denzel Washington, Satan jumped from a defeated and vanquished Germany and Japan into the USA after the end of WWII and has since taken up residence.
Where is the proof?
Study the USA carefully and you will see that it shows clear manifestation of the BIBLE’S SEVEN DEADLY SINS!
GLUTTONY, SLOTH,DEBAUCY,PRIDE,BLESPHEMY,JEALOUSY,and WRATH.
John Chan
@DownRedChina,
China will always be there regardless. China will surpass USA. Even all those Asian lackeys form a NATO style of alliance with USA, they cannot match China, just because they don’t have the numbers.
Your blinding hated towards China obscures your opportunity to benefit from China; your result is poverty and misery. China’s rise is due to its internal energy not because external gracefulness. The question is do you want to be on a sinking ship, the Westpac, or do you want peace and prosperity with China.
Cam
@john chan,
Wow, mr big talk again. You sounded pretty much like the “Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere”, you learned the old Japanese empire way pretty fast. Based on your comment, It seems like China has a recipe for war already. Oh, I am so scared!
Observer
@ jc said “they cannot match China, just because they don’t have the numbers.”
Oh really?
You mean how china BEING HUMILIATED BY smaller nations such as Japan, Britain, Manchu, Mongolia because those little nations did not have the numbers? Hehehehe, LOL.
Don’t forget about how little Vietnam HUMILIATED AND SHAMED big bully china that tried to invade in 1979. Tens of thousands of PLA soldiers ended up dead at the border. LOL.
Yes, you and your chinese buddies sure contribute a lot to the Diplomat, with your cluelessness and ignorant.
John Chan
@Cam,
China just wants to manage its own internal affairs and rise peacefully; Jeering and yapping against China only hurt peripheral nations.
domingo
John Chan, what do you think will happen if all USA companies go back home? Is not really good for China’s economy, while the Americans will be more than happy to welcome them back and restart manufacturing here at home or to allied countries without having to worry about intellectual property protections. In short, America can live without you, can China live without America?
DownRedChina
@John Chan
“just because they don’t have the numbers.”
Japanese had much smaller numbers and it crushed China at WW2. Remember 1979 Vietnam’s invasion?
“Your blinding hated towards China obscures your opportunity to benefit from China; your result is poverty and misery.”
I know facts that if I don’t eat Chinese products then I am OK and well.
“The question is do you want to be on a sinking ship”
Be careful what you are asking for. China can’t even deal with the Jap and Viet. You don’t stand a chance against the US. Remember Chinese leaders peed in their pants when 2 US war ships visited Taiwan in 1996?
I have a suggestion for you. How about you run for president? I will vote for you my friend!
ozivan
@DownRedChina. The world will be a better place without China. Literal sense or figurative ?
Before we proceed further, How do you propose to wipe out China from the world map ? Would love to hear your strategy on how to achieve your wish ?
You also said : None of nations in Asia like China. NONE ?? A few, many or most ? A better choice of words would reflect better on you.
Countries look after their own interest solely. Most countries want to be friends to all and enemies to none. There are no permanent friends, only permanent interest.
Peter Jones
Dead wrong.
It is the same old smelly, “Either you with us, or you are against us” thinking!
After witnessing the carnage that a marauding US Military can do, it is unthinkable that Asean countries will openly side with a bankrupted and belligerent USA.
If you think China is hostile, just count how many countries has China or the USA openly attacked,bombed and savaged?
The former, none.
The latter,four on the last count.
jim1980
There will not be cold war between US and China. US is too broke to have another war. It is thinking cut back big time in military spending. China also is too poor to start another war.
Aryan – indian
@all chinese?
FIrstly domestically its Australia’s own security arrangement with their ally America. This is their internal matter with their ally. Chinese have nothing to say nor we Indians.
Secondly, if china feels contained then it should see what they are doing to rest of world ???
THEY TRIED TO ENCIRLCE India. Achieved some success but then they should expect some response. If India goes to Vietnam then you feel threaten???????? If india is deploying additional 90 k soldiers and Brahmose cruise missiles in east then reason is you are deploying Nuclear Missiles and 300000 in TAR.
If you are cutting cables of oil exploring countries then they are buying additional submarines to protect themselves from you.
If chinese can develop nuclear facilities in Pakistan then why cant India do in Vietnam?
If you can place troops in Giglit -Balishistan then why cant americans go in Australia after all you are ally of Pakistan and so is America ally of Australia.
Peace is good for all. Death of every human is wrong no matter what the nationality is..
respect and treat others wisely.. u will get same.
John X
good points.
Leonard R.
A modest suggestion, the US should invite Hu Jntao, Lang Lang & the Bayi basketball team to play a game
on board a US carrier against Georgetown’s team. We’ll start with Lang Lang playing a song that insults everybodys’ ancestors. Then HJT can make a speech explaining why Americans should learn to kowtow.
After that, the American referees can cheat the Chinese team.
Then the American fans can mob them, beat them up & throw them overboard.
After that, the US sailors can feed Hu Jintao & Lang Lang to the sharks.
the Bayi Rockets will be given a chance to swim home because they are good sportsmen.
These are small gestures. But it is important to demonstrate the friendship between
China & America, it is something all peace-loving people in the world should applaud.
Yang zi
The editor really need to have a moral compass. Two countries can go to war what not, but it is always unfortunate and fighters on both side need to be respected. The kind of hate in Leonard R is primal and should not be encouraged.
John X
I believe that the Chinese have Frank and John Chan and we have to put up with Leonard.
2/1 odds.
All of them are problematic as I see it. John Chan worries me as he was quite a moderate poster when I first posted on here, but he he seems aggressive lately. Its not helpful to push for discord asa my family has just shown me. It all bites you later.
John Chan
@John X,
I am glad you are observant, and then do you think USA’s China containment policy wise and helpful to the peace and prosperity? There are not many wise guys in the Westpac like you, isn’t it?
a_canadian_observer
@YangZi: There is a saying: “without fire, there’s no smoke”. Get that? BTW, you should lecture your comrades about the language they use as well.
Nguoiphanbien
I’m Vietnamese and I rarely made comments and obviously I’m no fan of China. But this Leonard R’s anti-China comments are way out of line. Leonard R, You are really a despicable monster. You are sick to the core!
I challenge the editor to censor my comment here. If you censor my reaction to the comments made by an undisputably despicable monster like this Leonard R, then you are no better.
Huang
Now, this is truely one clearly mark bag of cowardice/scare/and full of hates and fears expression that one can never make a mistake where this character should be disposed of.
Accordingly,the kinds of hates in your remarks justify what ever means the Chinese reward(return the favors) you as they did against evils since the beginning of Chinese Civilization.
In bagging up your scares, hates bring hates and respects yields good deeds from the Chinese. Its a two-way street!
Lawrencekk
In my point of view (I am Taiwanese), the United States is playing with fire, the Chinese nation is a non-rational, in the past history, Chinese people are not afraid of death, can be sacrificed to the interests of tens of millions of lives, which in the Vietnam War with the Korean War can prove their point. in order to benefit can die, if the way to the United States against the Soviet Union against China, the whole of mankind will eventually die in a nuclear war. China’s past history of aggression has been their deep anger at any time outbreak If you have the opportunity to go to Beijing to live for a while you will see their shows are all about the past is the story of Japanese aggression.
Yang zi
Good comments.
I think America may overplayed its hand. ASEAN may want US to counter China, but not too much tilt in America’s favor. The Darwin base may actually hurt US in SEA politically. Philippines and Vietnamese may be happy, thinking it was to counter “Bully” China. But others may not, including Japan and India. Japan may feel less important, plus the connection of Darwin and Pearl harbor. India also knows the base can be used in Indian ocean.
For now, the base is symbolic, less real impact on China than Indonesia. The way Obama acts in the east Asia summit may also be unsettling for ASEAN, ASEAN is the host and want to drive the agenda, not US. The TPP’s future is very much umcertain, less real than ASEAN plus Three.
ASEAN plus three is what China will push. China may also enhance relations with Countries that don’t have dispute with. You will potentially see a divided ASEAN, this is not good. My guess is after some posturing, US and China will come back on the cooperation path. The global economy and supply chain has its own laws, China is still the best supplier in the world. China’s success is due to its peoples hard work and sweat.
TPP is a good idea, but hard to achieve and could speed up America’s decline if not done properly, but if it done properly for US, won’t be done properly for Japan and Vietnam. I just don’t see it within 5 years.
John Chan
TPP is the front of Pacific NATO.
Cam
@yang zi,
With your arrogant “big country” attitude, you can’t see (or pretend not to see) how much potentials of ASEAN compared to China. What if the West together with Japan and Skorea move all the investments from rising cost China to low cost ASEAN countries? What China has and ASEAN countries don’t in terms of resources and manpower? It is 590 million plus population region. The ASEAN countries have so many advantages over China: more resourceful, relative young energetic population, more fluently English speaking, more accessible to the sea lanes for goods transportation, ect and most importantly, they are US allies in the region. With ASEAN plus two (Japan and SKorea) alone, it is economically and militarily strong enough to counter China domination in the region.
Yes, we can be friends, good friends for sure if you treat everyone respectfully and equally.
yang zi
@Cam, why are you keep saying I have an arrogant big country attitude?
Ted
@Cam,
Sorry Cam, I think you might have missed out the Indian market which has over 1 billion of people.
a_canadian_observer
@yangzi: “@Cam, why are you keep saying I have an arrogant big country attitude?”
You can’t recognize that because it has become your subconcious nature. It’s like an adict not admitting his problem.
Huang
@cam,
Things on the ground are not as bad as you think. On the contrary, relations between China and ASEAN will emerged much stronger once the dark cloud(man made political and other sentimental poisons)passes. This will be the last wave of political assault against the stable path of peaceful developnments for Asia as a whole.
Likewise, the so-called “China Threats” nonsense will be proven wrong to the bone by new understandings among nations in Asia. All these nonsense share the ONE single origin–the China Threats Theory/theories. Since everything made up ultimately cancel itself out by time.
China and ASEAN are NOT easily fooled by those same OLD tricks any longer. The people in Asia and the developing World have AWAKEN.
Nathan
@Lawrencekk and All,
Agreed and disagreed on your various points. Agreed on once nukes are used, all parties involved (including China and Taiwan) will be destroyed and we will see others non-involved nations would pick up the pieces and enjoy the benefits. New World’s leaders will arise.
For the Americans, as a nation of immigrants, the Americans generally are mostly the best brains, the hardest workers and best survivors’ immigrants of all countries around the Globe coming to the US to build their lives. The US soldiers are very professionals, extremely well trained; Their weaponry is the best and lethal.
From my own past fighting experience, Vietnamese soldiers are one of the most fearsome ones; and the good thing is they are becoming our good friends and allied now.
For the modern China, with a single child family policy, I’m not sure if the single kid of each family would be willing to die (like the Vietnamese), or their many parents would allow the CCP to sacrifice their only child (whom they would need to support them).
Time will tell.
Lawrencekk
If doing more research about Korea war and Vietnam in Asia history record, you will find a intereting reports: many Chinese wear vietnam army uniform deal with USA army during Vietnam war and Korea war which not many western media report about it.. China have war experience with USA in Vietnam and Korea war..the result is obivious . Many chinese die but USA can’t win the war. The Chinese lost 20,0000lives in Korea war push united army go back 38′ , for Chinese , they don’t care how many people lost their lives.
a_canadian_observer
@Lawrencekk: Can you do us a favor by providing links/info to substantiate that “chinese weraing Vietnamese uniform” during the VN war to help VN?
How about in the past when VN fought and defeated the chinese invaders? Were there “chinese weraing Vietnamese uniform” as well?
Pier
@Lawrencekk,
I bet you that during 1979 Sino-Vietnam war, on the Vietnam’s border side, all the local Vietnamese militia forces were actually Chinese in disguide right? Over 40,000 dead PLA/Chinese soldiers and their war cemetaries were only the results of a fighting accident between Chinese in disguided as Vietnamese fighting with the real PLA soldiers.
Observer
@ Pier
Excellent comments. Funny how no chinese posters dare to reply to the links you provided in another article. The links were about the French documentary film of the 1979 border war between the chinese invaders and Vietnamese defenders.
In their mind, chinese never lose any wars and chairman mao is the greatest, LOL.
Alexander
The claim that forward deploying material and warfighters of the US military is symbolic of decline is laughable at best. Think of this more as an expansion of available bastions from which to deploy into the region from. Adding these new locations serves a dual purpose; greater flexibility of deployment while compounding the Chinese problem of containment. Future expansion of the Australian and Indian Navy’s can easily tip the balance of the hulls at sea equation, when added to what is expected to be a growing US naval presence. This move is the natural progression of a strategy of containment.
John Chan
@Alexander,
With the way the USA stretching, now I can understand how Maginot Line was built, it was a formidable containment tool against the Germans. Keep it up the good work American.
Observer
LOL @ chinese posters that are bragging about all the advance missles and weapons from the ccp.
Were you guys the ones that brag about how great the bullet train was in china? Were you guys the same ones then said those trains were from/made in Japan?
What will be your excuses next time when your weapons with stolen technology won’t work or blow up and kill chinese? LOL.
John Chan
@Observer,
We are debating the merits of Oz to act USA power forward presence node. Why don’t you make some meaningful contribution?
Observer
@ jc – sure, I will be more like you and make statements such as US F22s are made by chinese parts. LOL.
Or I will be like chinese posters in here, pretend to know it all and spew out ridiculous statements without any articles to back up and then being HUMILIATED AND ASHAMED, hehehehe.
John Chan
@Observer,
Even the F-22 part story was a rumour; on the other hand can you prove there is no Chinese parts in the F-22?
You are still trolling meaninglessly, can you make some meaningful contribution?
ozivan
@John Chan. You might want to google for : Pentagon bought 1 million counterfeit parts from China and/or Counterfeit chips plague Pentagon weapons systems.
You will find scores of reports on parts supplied by China to Pentagon’s weapons systems.
Some excerpts are as follows :
Dated: November 9, 2011
WASHINGTON — China is dumping counterfeit electronic parts into the Pentagon’s supply chain, two senior lawmakers alleged on Monday, putting U.S. troops at risk and undercutting the American economy.
One day before a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on the issue, Sen. Carl Levin, a Democrat, and John McCain, a Republican, offered details of the panel’s ongoing investigation
….. the panel’s investigators found about 1,800 cases of suspect counterfeit electronics being sold to the Pentagon. The total number of parts in these cases topped 1 million.
The committee hearing will examine three cases in which suspect counterfeit parts from China were installed in military systems made by Raytheon, L-3 Communications and Boeing.
“Now, a million parts is surely a huge number. But I want to just repeat this: We’ve only looked at a portion of the defense supply chain. So those 1,800 cases are just the tip of the iceberg,” Levin, the committee chairman, told reporters at a news conference.
The investigators found that counterfeit or suspect electronic parts were installed or delivered to the military for several weapons systems.
Investigators traced more than 70 percent of the cases to China. Nearly 20 percent led to Britain and Canada, the lawmakers said.
Unquote
===========================================================================
Also the following links :
Chinese counterfeit electronic parts ‘are putting U.S. military at risk …
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/…/Chinese-counterfeit-electronic-parts-putting-...
Counterfeit Parts Found on P-8 Posiedons | Defense Tech
defensetech.org
8 Nov 2011 – Oh, and while the Pentagon and defense industry is working on … An electronics market in China where counterfeit parts can be sold to brokers …
Observer
@ jc – you made the statement of US F22s were made with parts from china. It is YOUR responsibility to back up YOUR OWN statement. Maybe that is how you chinese debate in china but we are in the international forum now, not in china, get it?
Big bully china could not make a jet engine on its own (borrow and steal from Russia) and yet chinese like you brag about all the FAKE high tech stuffs.
Like you guys brag about the high speed trains a while back but later said they were all from Japan, LOL. How pathetic.
Observer
Here is another article from a well know source = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F22_Raptor
Now would jc and chinese posters please post some articles about F22s were made with parts from china? I did my part (provide articles to back up my statements) to prove my points, now it is your turn.
Observer
LOL @ the links about china fake parts, showing the whole world about china as the place for fake parts of everything. Fake, fake, and more fake. Fake and copy of everything and stolen IP.
Are there anything real in china? Yes, the dirty water, polluted air, poison meat, and explosive melons.
Innevitable Decline
This idea that the US’s movement to Australia is a sign of ongoing decline is absurd. It’s symbolic of a shift back to the Pacific after two long wars, and that’s it. Even when the US faced of with USSR in the 80s it did so through partnerships, and by leveraging the force and geographic convenience of its allies. One can hardly call a move to place American marines closer to disputed SCS territory a sign of decline; its a pragmatic redirection of resources to let China know the US is in the game to stay.
Good luck with that whole decline theory, though. As long as your editors let you make unsubstantiated claims like that I’ll bet your job is cake. But can you hack it once you have to validate your position?
ozivan
@Inevitable Decline. The US is far from inevitable decline. Those who underestimate the resilience and resourcefulness of the Americans will be mistaken.
The announcement of US increased use of Darwin’s existing military activities is not only good for re-affirming old established ties but also a message to any detractors not to mess with Australia, apart from the honour, respect and special place that US has reserved for Australia.
For US, it is cheapest way of posturing with maximum advertising value to showcase that the US is here to stay in the Asia-Pacific because on the ground, it has little really significant value against faraway China. It is fitful to remind that the US has never left the Asia-Pacific region at all or had reduced any of her military units across Asia, inspite of 2 wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. Her concentration was only temporarily diverted in the last 10 years.
The great intrigue could be that they are meant as a message/signal to muslim Indonesia & Malaysia to subtly remind them of their responsibilities to safeguard their Straits of Malacca and Sunda Straits for international freedom of navigation. If otherwise, why then the co-incidental earlier recent announcement just before US Defence Secretary Robert Gates retired, of US deployment of Littoral Combat Ships to Singapore ??
I see a different more possible scenario. Singapore has not long ago unearthed a plan by Indonesian terroists planning an attack on subways and important assets of Singapore. If it does happen (not necessarily condoned by the Indonesian Government, just through inept vigilance by Indonesia), then Singapore would demand heavy retribution, which if not met, would trigger a possible drastic retaliation like Israel did to Lebanon or Palestine. In the same breath, Indonesia (and Malaysia inducted into it) would not take any demands hands down on Singapore’s terms, stand firm and prepare for a shutdown of the Straits of Malacca and Sunda Straits in the event of war.
I am more concerned for Australia of such possibilities nearby than faraway China.
Meanwhile, newspaper ” The Australian ” had headlined on 17th November 2011 that ” US Australia Deal To Combat China ” is, in my view, scrapegoating China.
China needs to keep cool, as she does now by their Foreign Office spokesman’s comments. If China over-reacts, she would be entrapped.
John X
Actually, I would argue that it places both the US and Australia in a strong position. Chinas They can stand the l 9 dotted line comes no where near Oz.So if they attack Oz, then they are the aggressors as thier claims have no relevance to that region.
Plus the US has a backboard to protect, so it works out for them.
ozivan
@John X. Undisputably , any alliances between US and Australia will augur well for both countries. From Canberra’s point of view, it’s excellent.
The point is that if Darwin base is ever sold as aimed solely at China, it is a less convincing reason than it is for the greater security of regions nearer to our shores in Australia.
Japan could bomb Darwin only when they managed to conquer Indonesia, but in current times, it is inconceivable to think that China would attack faraway Darwin unless provoked in the event of war.
On 17th November 2011 the Indonesian “Jakarta Times” have already headlined ” US Bases In Indonesia’s Backyard “. And hopefully it doesn’t come to their minds of US force deployment to Singapore…which is in Indonesia’s frontyard. China’s Foreign Office have by far reacted quite coolly by raising only questions of US/OZ’s intentions rather than objections.
Asian diplomacy (most of Asian nations are) have by and large been characterised by smiles, polite acknowledgement of diplomatic explanations, never using the Western leaders’ style of public rebuke on differing issues. What’s in their heads and what subsequent actions they will take are often not in tangent.
That is why I opined that Australia must doubly do more diplomatically to assuage any Indonesian misgivings.
DownRedChina
I wouldn’t be surprised to see China withdraw its claims of 80% of SCS and publicly apologize and beg for forgiveness to all the countries involved.
China knew it was wrong but they did it anyway because the US was in 2 wars.
So many troubles for China ahead.
yang zi
I think you will go down first. China will never change its claim in SCS, which are features inside 9 dotted line.
DownRedChina
Explain to me why there are no coordinate for 9 dotted line???
Yang zi
US senator from Hawaii told a war story, which bring me into tears every time I hear it. He was fighting in WWII, he overpowered a japanese soldier, when this soldier reached his hand into his chest, he thought the solider is reaching for a gun, so he shot him, but this soldier was simply reaching for a picture of his daughter.
This is what happens in a war, Vietnam lost 3 million people in the war with US, Philippines lost 2million in independence war and WWII, I am all for China to hit you hard for your robbery of Chinese property, but the humanitarian in me and the holiday season say no.
So I will just tell you, don’t be fooled by your righteousness, respect other countries claims, abide by the code of conduct, no unilateral change of status quo, until a resolution is found by professionals.
Cam
@DownRedChina,
On behalf of Chinese diplomacy, I am asking you to “shut up”. You are asking too much and I don’t have answers for you.
Brad
The 9 dotted line idea is absurd and against international law.
Yang zi
@cam, don’t be too smart, I asked you to shut up because you wouldn’t let me praise India. @downredvietnam asked me a good question, but I don’t have the data, I am sure Chinese gov will provide one in negotiations.
I had some good Pho these days, so I will just be honest to tell you that I know how you feel. A line drawn so close to your shore. I would be angry too. But in reality, the lines were drawn for the islands in it, when it was drawn, there were no Philippines nor Vietnam as a country. So it was not meant to bully you or insult you.
However, as with any country, once a claim is made, you can not change it unless both party resolve it. So if every one calm down, don’t violate the DOC, start serious discussions, things can work out. But if anyone moves unilaterally, things can get ugly. Imagine China send it’s oil platform out, drill in disputed area, what will you feel?
Beside, Vietnam doesn’t have much oil potential basins even if you get a 200EEZ, what is the rush? As for fisherman, Vietnam should join China in the ban, otherwise Vietnamese kids won’t have fish to eat anymore.
Doea this sound reasonable?
Also @Cam, how Pho tastes like in Vietnam? I think they put MSG in it in US.
Cam
@yang zi,
You brought me into tears because of “humanitarian” in you. Don’t you know, because of your fake 9 dotted line map, which your “heroic” PLAN has been enforcing by shooting poor unarmed and ransoming poor Vietnamese/Filipino fishermen? Do you shred some tears for those poor fishermen, whose livelihoods are robbed at sea? Your tears should be crocodile tears for sure.
You guys are famously robbing and screaming for help at the same time.And this is laughable.
John Chan
@Cam,
yang zi asked you a question, “how Pho tastes like in Vietnam?” How do they make Pho soup in Vietnam? Aren’t you going to tell him?
Lung Sha Shou
@DownRedChina. Whilst I agree with the essence of your sentiments and your arguments regarding the disputed claims & China’s policies in the South China I think Ozivan’s friendly comments are correct.
The idea that any nation, let alone China would or should publicly apologize and “beg for forgiveness.” I am Eurasian and familiar with the concept of “face” and pride. The idea of begging forgiveness as a supplicant would be regarded as offensive and outrageous, particularly for a nation like China. Suggesting it does detract from your argument.
The strongest arguments “play the BALL not the MAN” – whenever people descend into hostile personal comments, or wishing harm injury or humilation on their opponent, it suggests a number of things about their lac of respect for others or bullying nature. I know bitter and hurtful issues are sometimes involved. If a persons family is killed or tortured as a result of the actions of those whose claim to power or grip on power comes from the support of other nations intent on extrating resources, then it is understandable they would have enormous justifiable anger to that country.
Still in this forum wh should try and skewer them with the strenght of our ideas and show them for what they are. I like to show bullies and fascists from what they are, they usually try and hide their true lack of respect & concern behind inconsistent areguments and contradictions.
Hello @Yang Zi,
Whilst I know you would not care what I think of you one bit, I shall still say that I respect you more for the way your responded to the previous comment – I have some sense of where you (ideologically)are coming from, and therefore and impressed by your comment “China will never change its claim in SCS, which are features inside 9 dotted line.”
Voltaire did NOT say “I may not agree with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it” (but it was in correspondence of his). I daresay when China rules the world I will end up in a Lao Gai, until then I look forward to our interchanges.
A fellow from Tsinghua Universtiy (i.e one of the elites did a section on the undergraound great wall – amazingly clever bit of policy – a good exapample of patriot’s abroad working for the motherland)
Yang zi
LumgShaShou, the war story was told by senator to show how cruel war is. He cried when he told the story, and I cried watching it on TV. Stories like these make you wonder, is anything worth for killing.
I know a lady, who buys Xmas gifts every year for wounded soldiers in walter reed hospital. She would tell me the young soldiers losing limbs, facing uncertain future in the society. These are sacrifices ordinary soldiers make, they may get a medal, but their lives are forever changed, for what purpose? The afghanistan war and Iraq war were both unnecessary, US could just post a 100million reward for bin laden, he would be killed in a few years, may be earlier than 2010.
My real hate for war started in 1979 Sino Vietnam war. We were told how necessary the war is, how righteous we are, but after soldiers sacrifices, CCP and VCP made up. I felt betrayed. So you see, I am a peacenik actually. I just don’t trust politicians making war decisions.
As for you, I just feel you are too serious, the world is not on your shoulder. You should be able to take a hit with smile.
Huang
@lss,
The strenghts of your ideas if any will be self-canceled by your hates and dishonesties.
Hiding behind some fake title automatically render your intents or grievances irrelavant.
The lack of courage to be who you really are naturally nullify what ever cause/causes you mistakenly pursuing.
Courage and truthfulness go hand-in-hand. Honesties and fairnesses are one and the same at all time.
Liars and fakers only fool themselves while they were believing they have lied with some sucesses.
Cam
@yang zi,
Of the 9 dotted line, we can debate for years and it won’t lead to anywhere meaningful because you and I stand on different ground. People with a right mind could see the 9 dotted line is a ridiculous claim, invalid from the start and it is no surprise if one is familiar with the “middle kingdom” mentality. China thinks she owns the world and her neighbors know this well. The expansionist ambitions are still there forever in their rulers mind regardless of what political system they might be at the time. To sum it up, the 9 dotted line is a product of a rising China bent to follow the footsteps of Imperial Japan. I had the map printed out and shown to people I know, people with different nationalities. You know what? They laughed out loud. By the way, my best friend at work is a Chinese mainland from Guilin, Guangxi as she and I share lots of common on different stuffs.
Talking about fishing ban, it is outrageous at best. How come you enforce a ban deep into the Vietnamese’s EEZ? Who gave you a right to do that? And this is only applying for Vietnamese fishing vessels. Chinese are free to fish in Vietnam’s water and the Chinese fishing fleets have PLAN escort so they comb almost everything in the East Sea and no one dares to protest.
John X
Yang Zi made this point: “I am all for China to hit you hard for your robbery of Chinese property, but the humanitarian in me and the holiday season say no.”
Two points:
1. What holiday season? Its November.
2. What chinese property is being robbed? China of today has the same rights to property as Philippines, Taiwan, Singapore, Cambodia of today, etc.
chinese claims are nothing more than a land grab, they even accept it when their supportsers state that most SEA nations of today never existed when China last had a possible claim.
Therefore, Chinese claims are unusual as they support a non time.
ozivan
@DownRedChina. It’s fair game for you to prophesy China’s week stand on the SCS’s claims and your arguments against China’s policies, but to say that China will have to….” publicly apologize and beg for forgiveness to all the countries involved “…is outlandish childish. It’s just weakened your case.
John Chan
@DownRedChina,
You do not have right to ask any question, Yang zi is too nice to wasting time.
The nine-dotted line is China’s inherited territory line, all lands inside that nine-dotted line is China land, squatters and trespassers inside the nine-dotted line will be evicted when the time comes.
DownRedChina
@John Chan: “You do not have right to ask any question, Yang zi is too nice to wasting time.” Oh yeah? I hear you but that is all you can come up. You seem to be angry when I ask about the legitimacy of China’s nine dotted lines claimed.
@Cam: “On behalf of Chinese diplomacy, I am asking you to “shut up”. You are asking too much and I don’t have answers for you.” This is exactly how communist Chinese rules China. China government is capable of another famous 1989 tiananmen square massacre.
@Yang zi: You mentioned about wars and how painful they are and I totally agree. But you failed to mention 10 to 20 millions Chinese deaths during WW2 with Japan and 400000 during 1979 with Vietnam. BTW, Vietnam didn’t commit main force divisions.
So let me reassure you that Chinese 9 dotted lines claimed have no basic and illegal under international laws. China goes deep into Philippine and Vietnam sovereignty and harasses and kills fishermen and demanded ransoms are criminals and UNACCEPTABLE.
John Chan
@DownRedChina,
1. You seems pretty angry to me, I just wonder what John X would say about your mental situation.
2. Tiananmen Square Massacre was an NYT and CIA’s creation to undermine China’s sovereignty.
3. In 1979, Vietnam’s main force hided behind women, old men and Children instead of fighting the enemy to save those venerable, it is really a disgrace to the VN soldiers.
4. The nine-dotted line delineated China’s territory in the SCS, even VN government said it was.
DownRedChina
@John Chan
You twisted the truth and making up facts. Your communist leaders ordered the military to crush your own people and now you blame the US. FYI, Vietnamese main forces were busy at Cambodia and chose to defend Hanoi. Comments like these are evident of small people. You should question yourself about your mental…
@Huang
I agree on your “good news”. Your military is much stronger now. As a result, your tanks could run over peaceful protesters and your navy killed unarmed Vietnamese service men at Paracel islands.
“Don’t hate China, hate whats causing your miseries.”
In fact, I have great respect for honest Chinese people. I have some good Chinese friends. One of them is Po Huang just like your first name. I asked them about news that “Chinese eat babies”. They confirmed it is true in some China’s provinces. We discussed about Chinese low quality products and they said they are afraid to use them too for their and their pets safeties. We discussed about blow up watermelon and people in China are scare to eat the vegetables/meat from the markets so they grown their own. We discussed about the car ran over 2 year old girl and was ignore by 18 passers. We discussed about Chinese is on top of the world about stealing intellectual properties (commercial and military). We discussed about China cheating currency system. We have the same views for all of the issues above.
Those are my concerns/worries about China – not hate. Whether we like it or not, it effects everyone of us globally.
Huang
@downredchina,
First, I would like to say this just to be fair to you “Downwhateverthenutyouare”.
Second, I would like to subject you to some ‘good news” and that is China has been encountering troubles continuously since the dawn of the modern age and the end is no where in sight-yet.
Also,China managed to overcome each as they pop-up and emerged a little better/stronger.
In fact, any single one of the “troubles” China encountered if for some reasons ricocheted on YOUR COUNTRY would bring your country to its knees or even be pushed back to the stone age.
So! Don’t hate China, hate whats causing your miseries.
Nathif bin Nathif
I am worried of Third World War to break soon between the G8 especially USA and China. The USA that has incurred costly wars against Islam and Rivaling USSR in the past decades after the WWII, is planning to destroy the strategic growing of China.
I will advise China to Fold and create a strong friendship with the Neighboring Asians and Middle East countries like Iran and Pakistan. It should not be emotional like the Arab countries. China should be strategic than the losing America.
NB: USA is just creating some wrong image of telling the world that it is still strong despite the fact that they have lost many wars in the World in the past decades i.e. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Georgia with Russia among others.
USA is behaving like the USSR during the Cold War. Now the time for USA has come to an end. By 2016-2020, China and Russia will take over the world.
Darren P.
Unless China and Russia can become true naval powers (like the USA is, and will continue to be), they are not going to militarily dominate the world anytime soon.
Yang Zi
At this point, I don’t think it is productive for China to build a competing navy with US. Air supperiorty is more important. The real deciding factor is in the space and air.
If a country masters the ship targeting technology for a Mach 10 missile ( I don’t think it can be done with current technology), have a sophisticated space monitoring network (this is easier, just a lot of sattellites and super computers) and hypersonic, global reach cruise missile, these combination is deadly to any navy.
More than likely, US will come up with this weapon system first, but Russia (by BrahMos missile program, also India) may make first hypersonic cruise missiles.
I am declaring the demise of navy usefulness, any counter arguments?
Yang zi
Actually, for a country like US, with 700 overseas bases, Navy is redundant. Except a couple of trident carrying hellish nuclear missiles.
Long range fighters, drones, global base accesses allows the fire power reach anywhere in the world. Let’s say it is Lybia war, after knocking out lybia’s missile sites, you can just rent a oil tanker, shoot the missiles from the tanker.