The latest defense dialogue between the Chinese and Indian militaries had some constructive ideas for improving military ties. Can they follow through?
For all the tension generated by the last-minute cancellation of border talks at the Special Representatives level, India and China not only held their annual defense dialogue in New Delhi on December 9 and 10, but also decided to move forward in strengthening military-to-military contacts.
The defense delegations were meeting after a nearly two year break, with the last such gathering having taken place in January 2010. The extended gap was prompted by Beijing’s denial of a visa to one of India’s top army generals because he was commanding troops in Jammu and Kashmir, a region China says is disputed territory between India and Pakistan.
But the bitterness that has been evident in the past couple of years appeared to be on hold when the two delegations met this time. Led by Indian Defense Secretary Shashikant Sharma and Gen. Ma Xiaotian, the Chinese military’s most visible face, the two sides decided to take incremental steps in improving their military contacts, rather than aiming for big ticket announcements.
Accordingly, two mid-level delegations will visit each other in successive months starting in January. India also proposed that some of the border posts along the 4,000 kilometer Line of Actual Control (LAC), as the border is officially known, could be relocated for administrative and logistical convenience, a request Beijing’s military delegation agreed to consider.
The largely un-demarcated LAC runs along some of the most inhospitable terrain in the world. Troops are deployed there at altitudes in excess of 12,000 feet all along the Himalayas, where temperatures frequently dip to anything between minus 20 to minus 40 degrees Celsius between November and April.
While infrastructure along the border on the Indian side is continuously being improved under a comprehensive plan, Indian troops have to spend at least a month acclimatizing to the extreme weather conditions after a steep climb from the plains of northern India. Some posts in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh are still accessible only on foot, after a two-day trek. Chinese PLA troops, on the other hand, have the advantage of being deployed on the high altitude Tibetan plateau, which boasts much better infrastructure.
Although the disputed boundary has largely remained peaceful, transgressions by troops from either side into each other’s territory have been a major irritant in a relationship that’s increasingly marked by rising trade, but a corresponding increase in mutual suspicion over military matters. While China views India’s developing ties with countries around the South China Sea – and its intention to develop a 5,000 kilometer range missile capable of hitting deep into Chinese territory – suspiciously, India regards China’s overt and covert assistance to Pakistan and other countries in the region as aimed at tying India down in the sub-continent.
It’s with this reality in mind that both sides see deeper military-to-military ties as a way of reducing suspicion – and the chance of miscalculation.
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james
Where these figures coming from???
Your kitchen’s cook book?
James
ved
Mr. james am i know u from???
Asoka
As the leader of nuclear technology and IT in the world, India offers Japan the only hope of pulling out of its two decades of economic slum. We should utilize our trillions of foreign reserves to rebuild Japan’s industries devastated by the earthquakes and tsunami. India’s expertise in nuclear power could help Japan to improved its much criticized safety record. It’s a win-win situation. By helping Japan, India and Japan cooperation will keep China at bay, shutting her out completely, and allow India to dominate the vast expanse of India’s extended neighbourhood from the east cost of Africa to the port of Vladivostok.
To realize this goal, we should immediately open negotiation with the Australian government to allow India to station combat troops on Australian soils to protect Indian strategic interests, leading to the eventual annexation of Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, Burma and other countries in the Indian Ocean. This will make the vast Indian Ocean an truly Indian lake.
George Williams
India is too corrupt. Way to much poverty for a country that’s assumed to be free. With an economy as good as some of you say why does it seem as if everytime I hear the word India I automatically assume “slums, poverty, prostitution, child prostitution, corruption, government abuse oh and those wacky train riders. Look I am an American citizen and I don’t want to offend anyone but the truth is china is the true new super power and India is doing nothing more but wishful thinking. There are reasons why the press always tries to throw in India alongside china in terms of calling them the next super power. Truth is many Americans here just think that the Chinese have a more thought out plan for their future as for India it’s always seems to be chaos and disorder.
Asoka
I am tired of hearing that India is behind China and that she will one day catch up to China. Let me tell you the Truth India is already a global superpower. Forget about G2, G8, G20, India is class by itself.
India is G1, the lone hyper-superpower in the world.
We are not behind China in the race. We have already won the race to become the world’s next superpower. We are already enjoying our Superpowerdom, superpowerhood, and supoerpower status, thank you very much Bloomberg editors.India has the fastest growing economy in the world with over 10% annual growth rate, the world’s largest middle class consumers with over 1 billion people, the world’s largest and greatest democracy, and a huge foreign reserve that is second to none.
It makes no sense to talk about India’s future. India is the Future. We will rule the world. India is shining.
Let me tell you a few more facts about our Great Country India:
1>India Largest Democracy in the world-: Population: 1.2 Bn. India’s population will surpass china’s by 2030. India has the largest middle class in the world –> Population superpower.
2>India the most industrialized country. India produced the cheapest car, the Tata Nano. India’s IT industry is second to none. Industrial superpower.
3> India never lost a war in its 8000 years history. War superpower.
4> India never invaded other country in history. Peace Superpower.
5>Largest english speaking nation by 2010. The world’s biggest back office. world’s largest skilled workforce. World’s largest working age population. People superpower.
6> over 800 movies made anuualy–bollywood overshadows hollywood, Movies superpower.
7> 6 Miss Universe / Miss world titles in last 10 years: Beauty superpower
8>Per capita income US $9550 ; 2% live in poverty, literacy levels at 88%. India has the world’s largest number of millionaires and billionaires: economic superpower!
9>The Indian Diaspora
38% of Doctors in AMerica are Indians
36% of NASA employees are Indians
34% of Microsoft employees are Indians
28% of IBM employeesare Indians
17% of Intel employees are Indians
13% of Zerox employees are Indians
intellectual superpower!
10>India will eventually become world’s largest economy in 2083–Goldman Sachs
11>India is fastest growing GDP’s in the world, averaging over 10% growth since 1990.
12>India’s GDP will exceed that of Italy in 2020, France in 2020, Germany in 2025 and Japan in 2035 — USA in 2050, China in 2082 –Goldman Sachs
13>India’s Foreign exchange reserves history
1990-91 $40 billion
1995-96 $200 billion
2001-02 $600 billion
2002-03 $760 billion
2003-04 $1000 billion
2004-05 close to $1500 billion
2006-10 over $ 3000 billion
14>Indian Economy
Robust hyper growth of manufacturing, agriculture and services
Low external debt, low deficit, high trade surplus
299 Fortune 500 companies outsource IT work to India
Increased disposable income, increased wealth
Large emerging affluent middle class
15>Indian Aviation
Air deccan–1 st low cose domestic carrier
Most international carriers now target India for network growth and profitability
$5 bn capital infusion in govt owned carriers
Airport privatization
16>India will be the second fastest growing travel and tourism market over 2005-2014 at 8.8%– WTTC
17> Size of indian tourism is 330 million as of 2004
18>Indians going abroad as of 2004
Singapore — 375,658
Saudi Arabia — 373,636
UAE — 336,046
Kuwait — 293,621
Thailand — 280,641
Bahrain — 268,383
USA — 257,271
China — 213,611
U.K — 205,065
Hongkong — 193,705
NewZealand — 16,862
19> India growth projections
1999 — 2.7%
2000 — 3.4%
2001 — 3.6%
2002 — 4.2%
2003 — 4.5%
2004 — 5.9%
2005 — 6.9%
2006 — 8.0%
2007 — 9.4%
2008 — 11%
2009 — 12.8%
2010 — 15%
2011-2050 — 16.8%
20> Drivers of outbound growth
Increased charter operations
Upper middle income group will remain largest segment
potential consumer pie will grow to 300 billion
Age group of 15 to 49 likely comprise 62%
Self-employed who account for over 40% will emerge as
high potential target market
Holiday finance will become popular
21> Over 500 million Indian’s will travel overseas by 2020 — WTO
22> india discover water in moon, space superpower
23> 15 indian awarded Nobel prize.
24> Indian Prime Minister Nehru gifted the UN Security Council Seat to China, and now India is the leading candidate for the permanent member, winning endorsement from USA, Great Britain and Russia. Diplomacy Superpower
James
According to your data, India is the most dominant super power on the Earth.
Your wishful thinking will be eventually prove to be reliable.
James
Shah
Please do not misunderstand me. I have a very high respect for India. I must say that there is no need for India to be a super power. There were many super powers in the past. Carthage, Rome, Persia, Turkey, The Mings, The Mauryans, The Guptas, The Moghuls, The Russians, British etc – All have disappeared.
It will be better if India looks after its own defenses, security and welfare of its people. (for example the government of India failed to provide security to 500,000 Kashmiri Pandits – Beyond this sorry to say but half of the population do not have basic facilities for personal hygiene).
A state that can not provide its citizens security can not be a super power and a government that can not provide security to its citizens and defend the country has no right to administer the country period.
AC
LOL
I don’t bear any grudges against India but just LOL and facepalm.
I would much rather a high HDI country than an Indian version of Soviet Russia which is full of starving discontent citizens left behind.
You’re just another marauding trumpet blower in a band of disillusioned patriots who herald in the false success of their country; instead of being proud of you’re own individual achievements. You’re patriotism is like being excessively proud of your brother’s Phd and in denial of your little brother’s failure i.e. the status of a developing India. Re-read your post and tell me if I’m wrong.
Canadian 2134
Well read. While some of the tings you said may not entirely be true, Indian influence around the world was realized by 2day reading your comment. Well said.
Raj
As everyone of us knows, China claims Arunachal Pradesh solely because the area is part of southern Tibet. Thus it claim it has historical rights on this area, thus seeking to annexing it into China. If we say this claim is valid, then we should look into other side of story. Tibet, historically and culturally has more links to India, It’s way of life mostly influenced by Buddhist doctrine. Tibet was also northern part of Kushan Empire, which its Capital was Benares, which is in India. To know more of this, try googling Kushan Empire. Apart from this China never had any historical footprints in Tibet as what it claims now. If China still claims that Arunachal Pradesh is part of China, then India has every rights to claim whole of China as It’s territory. The reason, China is predominantly Buddhists, with heavy Buddhism culture which was heavily influenced by India. Apart from that, China’s prestigious martial art, Shaolin Kung Fu, is originated from southern India, history claims that Indian monk, Bodhidharma, who taught the Chinese to fight, was a prince from Pallava Empire. So why not Indians turn the table now, and assert itself to protect It’s integrity and honour by teaching the Chinese once again in history a valuable lesson.
Major Lowen Gil Marquez, Phil Army
The history of India from the beginning of Buddhism were very rich and it started in India before it spread to China, Tibet should have a freedom from the bullying China, it seems the communist Chinese wanted to conquer the world which is beyond their hallucinate communist imagination.. they wanted to bully the small nation like Tibet and cripplingly invaded the Spratley group of Island in the Western Philippine Sea as what they did in Vietnamese in one of the shoal in Spratley group of island at western philippine sea, which the Chinese Navy massacre hundred of un-armed Vietnamese.
Mann
The Indian government have said they were planning to flood the South Tibet/Arunachal region with a million Indians which would overwhelm the natives there mostly of Tibetan ancestry.
Also India had tried to assert British drawn borders and beyond it but failed miserably which left some in India still bitter today despite little resistance from China in having India administrating the region. Most countries that lose a battle would never have that chance.
Sravan
@Mann
I think you mispelt China with India, Indian governmant has no such stupid plans, i challenge you to provide a knowledgable link to your claim
Mazo
Small problem: Unlike China, India can’t flood a place with people because unlike China, in India, the Indian people are not things for the government to use. Forcible relocation is not something the Indian government practices for “political” goals. If this were the case, India would have done what China has done and taken the Kashmiri people from Kashmir and put them all across India and transplanted people from other parts of India to Kashmir homogenizing the area. But this would violate people’s rights and is not possible in a democratic nation so easily.
Raj
That’s how.we do it differently than China, we should not force a mass exodus to Arunachal Pradesh. If the Goverment of India pose income tax for the indigenous people, for example, if a person came from Tamil Nadu, he should.be imposed income tax if he works within the state, but if he works in other state except his state of origin, his tax should be waved. If this.law applied to all.Indian states, then it should work.well to play a amalgamation process naturally not forcefully. It should.be applied to.all working class Indian residents.
Jeb
Another good read describing how India annexed the Tibetan town Tawang.
http://chinaindiaborderdispute.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/nmaxwelltawangsevensisterspostnov2011.pdf
Jeb
Indians like to talk about their supposed freedom over their Chinese counterpart in China. Talk is cheap. Now the British has created a country for them. But 60 plus years later India has more people in hunger than the 26 countries in sub-Sahara Africa combined, despite decades of high economic growth.
Asoka
I am tired of hearing that India is behind China and that she will one day catch up to China. Let me tell you the Truth India is already a global superpower. Forget about G2, G8, G20, India is class by itself.
India is G1, the lone hyper-superpower in the world.
We are not behind China in the race. We have already won the race to become the world’s next superpower. We are already enjoying our Superpowerdom, superpowerhood, and supoerpower status, thank you very much Bloomberg editors.India has the fastest growing economy in the world with over 10% annual growth rate, the world’s largest middle class consumers with over 1 billion people, the world’s largest and greatest democracy, and a huge foreign reserve that is second to none.
It makes no sense to talk about India’s future. India is the Future. We will rule the world. India is shining.
Let me tell you a few more facts about our Great Country India:
1>India Largest Democracy in the world-: Population: 1.2 Bn. India’s population will surpass china’s by 2030. India has the largest middle class in the world –> Population superpower.
2>India the most industrialized country. India produced the cheapest car, the Tata Nano. India’s IT industry is second to none. Industrial superpower.
3> India never lost a war in its 8000 years history. War superpower.
4> India never invaded other country in history. Peace Superpower.
5>Largest english speaking nation by 2010. The world’s biggest back office. world’s largest skilled workforce. World’s largest working age population. People superpower.
6> over 800 movies made anuualy–bollywood overshadows hollywood, Movies superpower.
7> 6 Miss Universe / Miss world titles in last 10 years: Beauty superpower
8>Per capita income US $9550 ; 2% live in poverty, literacy levels at 88%. India has the world’s largest number of millionaires and billionaires: economic superpower!
9>The Indian Diaspora
38% of Doctors in AMerica are Indians
36% of NASA employees are Indians
34% of Microsoft employees are Indians
28% of IBM employeesare Indians
17% of Intel employees are Indians
13% of Zerox employees are Indians
intellectual superpower!
10>India will eventually become world’s largest economy in 2083–Goldman Sachs
11>India is fastest growing GDP’s in the world, averaging over 10% growth since 1990.
12>India’s GDP will exceed that of Italy in 2020, France in 2020, Germany in 2025 and Japan in 2035 — USA in 2050, China in 2082 –Goldman Sachs
13>India’s Foreign exchange reserves history
1990-91 $40 billion
1995-96 $200 billion
2001-02 $600 billion
2002-03 $760 billion
2003-04 $1000 billion
2004-05 close to $1500 billion
2006-10 over $ 3000 billion
14>Indian Economy
Robust hyper growth of manufacturing, agriculture and services
Low external debt, low deficit, high trade surplus
299 Fortune 500 companies outsource IT work to India
Increased disposable income, increased wealth
Large emerging affluent middle class
15>Indian Aviation
Air deccan–1 st low cose domestic carrier
Most international carriers now target India for network growth and profitability
$5 bn capital infusion in govt owned carriers
Airport privatization
16>India will be the second fastest growing travel and tourism market over 2005-2014 at 8.8%– WTTC
17> Size of indian tourism is 330 million as of 2004
18>Indians going abroad as of 2004
Singapore — 375,658
Saudi Arabia — 373,636
UAE — 336,046
Kuwait — 293,621
Thailand — 280,641
Bahrain — 268,383
USA — 257,271
China — 213,611
U.K — 205,065
Hongkong — 193,705
NewZealand — 16,862
19> India growth projections
1999 — 2.7%
2000 — 3.4%
2001 — 3.6%
2002 — 4.2%
2003 — 4.5%
2004 — 5.9%
2005 — 6.9%
2006 — 8.0%
2007 — 9.4%
2008 — 11%
2009 — 12.8%
2010 — 15%
2011-2050 — 16.8%
20> Drivers of outbound growth
Increased charter operations
Upper middle income group will remain largest segment
potential consumer pie will grow to 300 billion
Age group of 15 to 49 likely comprise 62%
Self-employed who account for over 40% will emerge as
high potential target market
Holiday finance will become popular
21> Over 500 million Indian’s will travel overseas by 2020 — WTO
22> india discover water in moon, space superpower
23> 15 indian awarded Nobel prize.
24> Indian Prime Minister Nehru gifted the UN Security Council Seat to China, and now India is the leading candidate for the permanent member, winning endorsement from USA, Great Britain and Russia. Diplomacy Superpower
Jeb
To give substance to what John Chan is talking about, here is an article describing how India invaded and annexed a piece of Tibet in 1951 (3 plus years after independent India was created), a piece of territory that was still directly administered from Lhasa and was not part of the British Raj.
http://kanglaonline.com/2011/06/khathing-the-taking-of-tawang/
Andre Sauvageot
Even though I have no expertise or direct experience regarding the military dialogue between India and China, years of living and working in Vietnam make me very skeptical of China’s intentions or good will.
Recently China tried to intimidate India to keep it from implementing a contract with Vietnam’s Petroleum Group (PetroVietnam) to explore a couple of lots in Vietnam’s EEZ located in the so-called, grossly misnamed “South China Sea.” Beijing told India that implementing its contract would harm its bilateral relationship with China.
India’s Prime Minister commendably, courageously, and intelligently, let the “People’s Republic of China” know that India would proceed to implement its contract oligations with the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.
Clearly, India’s respect for its own sovereignty, not to mention Vietnams, has not disuaded Beijing from continuing a military to military dialogue. This is a small example of a larger reality, To wit: Being an obsequious “doormat” for the “Middle Kingdom” is NOT the best way to build a solid relationship with China based on mutual benefit. Which is the only kind worth having, unless one prefers a master, slave relationship.
China continues its gross, sometimes violent intrusions into Vietnam’s territorial waters, but Vietnam’s intelligent courageous foreign policy seeks to multi-lateralize dialogue in conformance with international law, the UN 1982 Convention on the Law of the Sea, etc.
In any event, it is better that India and China are talking than if they were not. Especially, considering that India is not naive as it pursues these discussions, even as it intelligently augments its defense budget and modernizes its increasingly powerful navy.
Jeb
Hi Andre, this is how China tried to ‘intimidate’ India:
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/podcasts/India_China_Border.mp3
http://www.gregoryclark.net/redif.html
John Chan
@Andre Savuageot,
This article is about India and China; it has nothing to do with Vietnam. Your French ex-colonial master benevolent attitude toward Vietnam will not make Vietnamese to take French back as their master again. So your smearing of China is just as ugly as the French attacked a disabled Chinese girl relaying Olympics flame in France.
Libya’s Gaddafi has mistaken mutual benefit the best way to maintain a solid relationship with France; he bought major arms from France and gave major oil concession to France, yet France stabbed Gaddafi’s back and sold him down the drain while taking Gaddafi’s money. France led the bombing and killing in Libya in the façade of democracy and human rights.
Such dubious nature of France is hardly qualified to talk about trust and friendship, even less acceptable to meddle the affairs that involve its former colonies.
JohnX
John Chan wrote: “So your smearing of China is just as ugly as the French attacked a disabled Chinese girl relaying Olympics flame in France.”
Remind me, how well did she get treated by the Chinese public when she later said something that upset them?
Sravan
While liang makes deragatory statements on the sovereignty of India and still blames Indians for lack of trust in the region. Anyway going by the article it appears PLA are more mature than people like liang or frank. On the other hand it is applaudable of the fact that in near future the Defence College will have a wide range of alumni including the PLA.
yang zi
Why are keep mentioning Frank? He has not appeared for a long time. China and India need leaders that can see future.
India want respect, China should respect it, support its bid for UN security console membership. But since China’s friend Pakistan oppose it, China cant abandon its friend. I really hope Pakistan and India gave a good relationship
Girish
Agreed, but if China really take care of their friends like Pakistan, then they must not hesitate in opposing its friend when they are going on wrong path. World knows that Pakistan is a terror factory who is now being used to kill its own people and not just others.
We have never seen China strongly opposing Pakistan on terror front and its military who never let a government to establish itself and take charge of the country. Even now there are news of coup in Pakistan.
We understand reason why China needs to support Pakistan due to its requirement to get access to Indian ocean as well as create a pain for India by first proliferating nuclear and missile tech and now weapons which Pakistan economy cannot even support.
Anyhow militants once getting in power in Pakistan, they will surely create pain for China too.
Anyhow..China need good, peaceful country like India with huge market and opportunity as a long term friend rather then country like Pakistan who is still trying to understand their reason of existence even after 65 years.
Liang1a
Quote from the article:
India also proposed that some of the border posts along the 4,000 kilometer Line of Actual Control (LAC), as the border is officially known, could be relocated for administrative and logistical convenience, a request Beijing’s military delegation agreed to consider.
———————-
Liang’s comment:
What does it mean by relocating border posts? Does it mean that the actual border or wherever the sentries face each other will be moved? And in which direction? China should insist on the Indians move the border posts all the way out of Zhang Nan.
Mao should never have retreated after defeating the Indians. The Zhang Nan people are all wishing they can be under the protection of the Chinese government who are giving those Chinese citizens in Tibet a much higher incomes and standard of living than those in Zhang Nan. Time to liberate an important part of China still under foreign colonial rule.
Kristal
That is, after Tibet is “liberated” from its occupying power you mean??? UNESCO expressed concern a few years back how the chineese government is deliberately destroying the culutral identity of Tibet by forcibly imparting chinese way of life on those people. Is that right?
Girish
@Liang1a
That Proposal means that India would like to withdraw forward post on the border which has already been officially recognized. This is prove to be convenient for both the nations.
“China should insist on the Indians move the border posts all the way out of Zhang Nan.”
You doesn’t make any sense when you say this.
“Mao should never have retreated after defeating the Indians”
Forget it, it happened in last century. Now, the realities are totally different.
“The Zhang Nan people are all wishing they can be under the protection of the Chinese government who are giving those Chinese citizens in Tibet a much higher incomes and standard of living than those in Zhang Nan”
Nothing but a fantasy tale and wishful thinking propogated by some CCP mouthpiec.
Forget what Zhang Nan people think, even Tibeten do not want chinese rulers and protects and their ruthless crackdown by Chinese invaders is evident.
Also, it is only a confusion in most of the Chinese who believe the standard of living only means higher income. Infact, reality is higher standard of living means higher income along with political freedom and freedom of speech and expressions.
In India, people here already enjoy freedom which ordinary Chinese citizen can only fantasied. And on income, please put some brains, India is second fast growing economy and per capita income and standard of living is improving and not deteriorating.
For us, it is absolutely OK to grow at 8% while we enjoy freedom rather then grow at 10% without freedom.
Kristal
I seriously pray that trigger-itchy gentlemen like @lian1a don’t make it to the top decision making echelon of these two countries. Otherwise they’ll end up destroying the future of nearly 2/6ths of the human race. While magazines like The Diplomat strive to impart a clearer sense of understanding among its readers & give room for diplomacy to do his part, you also have a few bunch of war-mongerers on the other side desperately wanting the opposite! What good would it do if both these great civilizations fight each other???
“A wise man would find a way not to fight a war!”
Atleast the Americans & the Soviets had the whole Atlantic inbetween them. India & china are rubbing shoulders as neighbours. Obviously there would be tension. Solving it is the need of the hour…..
Liang1a
Kristal wrote:
December 23, 2011 at 2:13 am
I seriously pray that trigger-itchy gentlemen like @lian1a don’t make it to the top decision making echelon of these two countries. Otherwise they’ll end up destroying the future of nearly 2/6ths of the human race. While magazines like The Diplomat strive to impart a clearer sense of understanding among its readers & give room for diplomacy to do his part, you also have a few bunch of war-mongerers on the other side desperately wanting the opposite! What good would it do if both these great civilizations fight each other???
———————————–
Liang’s response:
I’m certainly not the trigger happy one here or anywhere. It is America that is encircling China and started the whole dangerous situation. It is India that has attacked and invaded and for decades occupied Chinese sovereign territories. If these two countries are peaceful then China would have no reason to demand for the return of its stolen territories. And patriotic people of China including myself would have no need to demand the return of our sovereign territories. It is typical of the hypocrisy of India to cry thief when itself is the only thief around. And the only way to counter such hypocrisy is not to plead and beg for peace but to use force to retake China’s sovereign territories. After China has liberated its lost territories, then we can talk peace.
=================================
Cristal wrote:
“A wise man would find a way not to fight a war!”
Atleast the Americans & the Soviets had the whole Atlantic inbetween them. India & china are rubbing shoulders as neighbours. Obviously there would be tension. Solving it is the need of the hour…..
—————————-
Liang’s response:
A wise man would take back his lost properties and not be fooled by devious thieves.
As Confucius said, “好仁不好学，其蔽也愚。好信不好学，其蔽也贼” (To love benevolence without first learning (wisdom), the resultant harm is foolishness. To be trusting without first learning (wisdom), the resultant harm is becoming victims of thieves.) While all benevolent people would welcome peace, only fools without wisdom would be tricked into giving away their properties by thieves. India is such a thief and grifter. It had robbed China of its sovereign territories with force and yet it is now sanctimoniously preaching peace and accusing China of being trigger happy for wanting to use force to recover its sovereign territories. Therefore, China would be foolish to use diplomacy to beg for the return of its stolen territories. China could beg for the rest of eternity and India would never willingly return China’s rightful territories. In the end it is not possible for China to get back its stolen territories without resorting to military force.
Solution of the problem is easy. Just let India return China’s territories it had stolen and peace will reign in the region. Else there will be war. And the people responsible for this war are the Indians.
Mukesh
Good one from you Kristal nice keep it up
Liang1a
Girish wrote:
December 22, 2011 at 2:41 pm
@Liang1a
That Proposal means that India would like to withdraw forward post on the border which has already been officially recognized. This is prove to be convenient for both the nations.
————————–
Liang’s response:
China never recognized the current line of control as the border. China is demanding that the stolen territories of Zhang Nan be returned as soon as possible. If the CCP government gave away even one inch of this territory then the Chinese people will rise up and destroy it.
===========================
Liang’s prior post: “China should insist on the Indians move the border posts all the way out of Zhang Nan.”
Girish wrote: You doesn’t make any sense when you say this.
————————
Liang’s response:
Zhang Nan is China’s sovereign territories. Of course it must be returned to China.
===========================
Liang’s prior post: “Mao should never have retreated after defeating the Indians”
Girish wrote: Forget it, it happened in last century. Now, the realities are totally different.
—————————-
Liang’s response:
Realities can be changed.
=========================
Liang’s prior post: “The Zhang Nan people are all wishing they can be under the protection of the Chinese government who are giving those Chinese citizens in Tibet a much higher incomes and standard of living than those in Zhang Nan”
Girish wrote: Nothing but a fantasy tale and wishful thinking propogated by some CCP mouthpiec. Forget what Zhang Nan people think, even Tibeten do not want chinese rulers and protects and their ruthless crackdown by Chinese invaders is evident.
——————————-
Liang’s response:
India has even lower standard of living than Philippines. Of course, Chinese citizens in Tibet have much higher standard of living than the people in India. And Chinese citizens in Zhang Nan are sick and tired of India’s corruption and incompetence and want to return to the Chinese motherland. Tibetans love China and consider themselves Chinese. Only saboteurs trained by India commit terririst acts in China. China should ultimately slap down and regime change India like America regime changed Afghanistan.
==================================
Girish wrote:
Also, it is only a confusion in most of the Chinese who believe the standard of living only means higher income. Infact, reality is higher standard of living means higher income along with political freedom and freedom of speech and expressions.
In India, people here already enjoy freedom which ordinary Chinese citizen can only fantasied. And on income, please put some brains, India is second fast growing economy and per capita income and standard of living is improving and not deteriorating.
For us, it is absolutely OK to grow at 8% while we enjoy freedom rather then grow at 10% without freedom.
————————-
Liang’s response:
Even Indians don’t believe in such drivel. No Indians would want to live in India if they had the chance to leave. One million Indians live in Singapore under the ethnic Chinese government. Hundreds of thousands of Indians live in Hong Kong and mainland China. This is strongest proof that Indians love to live under Chinese rule. So dishonest Indians like Girish can lie and lie but real Indians just run to Chinese ruled places whenever they can. It is clear proof that the people in Zhang Nan would love to return to the motherland and be under Chinese rule again.
Don’t preach to me about democracy. I want democracy for China. Even the CCP is talking about democracy for China over time. But no Indians will trade a miserable poverty stricken life under the corrupt Indian “democracy” for a comfortable life under the increasingly enlightened “dictatorship” of China. And ultimately democracy will be implemented in China with efficiency and benevolence as in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore. While India will just become more and more corrupt and increasingly undemocratic with its iron clad caste system and money politics.
As to India growing at 8%，this may not be possible. For a few years India may be able to grow at 8% by doing some outsourcing work for Americans. But this cannot continue for long. Already America is economically dead in the water and outsourcing work will correspondingly dry up. In the end, if India want to grow for the long term, it will need to work for the Chinese.
Girish
@Liang1a
Liang’s response:
China never recognized the current line of control as the border. China is demanding that the stolen territories of Zhang Nan be returned as soon as possible. If the CCP government gave away even one inch of this territory then the Chinese people will rise up and destroy it.
Girish’s response:
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Not entire length of border area is disputed (don’t jump before understanding the subject). There are many sections which are recognized by both countries. We are TALKING about those areas and post where both countries mutually can agree to retreat from forward posted. We are neither suggesting our armed forces to move backward from the post which Chinese feels disputed.
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Liang’s response:
Realities can be changed.
Girish’s response:
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Yes, true….and arrogance is easy to defect.
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Liang’s response:
India has even lower standard of living than Philippines. Of course, Chinese citizens in Tibet have much higher standard of living than the people in India. And Chinese citizens in Zhang Nan are sick and tired of India’s corruption and incompetence and want to return to the Chinese motherland. Tibetans love China and consider themselves Chinese. Only saboteurs trained by India commit terririst acts in China. China should ultimately slap down and regime change India like America regime changed Afghanistan.
Girish’s response:
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Doesn’t make any sense while you are comparing India’s standard of living with Philippines or any other country where as both countries are different. By the way why still China’s living standard still far behind as compare to Malaysia?
Tibet has better stand of living, agreed. So? and you said curruption? can you check Chinese level of corruption in latest transparency report. Chinese is one of the most currupt country too. Atleast Indian system provides machisems for citizens to raise their voice against any misgovernance. Read more about Lokpal movement and send me links if Chinese citizens are doing something similar to combat curruption in China.
Tibetian love Chinese rulers….I can only laugh as you are brain washed by CCP propaganda. India is not a terrorist country. Let me hear calling India a terrorist country by someone from CCP, then I will respond.
You putting India in Afghanistan league? are you crazy? Never thought how bad some can be in analytical skills despite posting good looking comments. This is height of blindness out of craziness because of arrogance.
Well better put focus on saving CCP regime meanwhile as that looks more shaky as of now. In India we change our regime by elections so don;t; worry.
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Liang’s response:
Even Indians don’t believe in such drivel. No Indians would want to live in India if they had the chance to leave. One million Indians live in Singapore under the ethnic Chinese government. Hundreds of thousands of Indians live in Hong Kong and mainland China. This is strongest proof that Indians love to live under Chinese rule. So dishonest Indians like Girish can lie and lie but real Indians just run to Chinese ruled places whenever they can. It is clear proof that the people in Zhang Nan would love to return to the motherland and be under Chinese rule again.
Don’t preach to me about democracy. I want democracy for China. Even the CCP is talking about democracy for China over time. But no Indians will trade a miserable poverty stricken life under the corrupt Indian “democracy” for a comfortable life under the increasingly enlightened “dictatorship” of China. And ultimately democracy will be implemented in China with efficiency and benevolence as in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore. While India will just become more and more corrupt and increasingly undemocratic with its iron clad caste system and money politics.
As to India growing at 8%，this may not be possible. For a few years India may be able to grow at 8% by doing some outsourcing work for Americans. But this cannot continue for long. Already America is economically dead in the water and outsourcing work will correspondingly dry up. In the end, if India want to grow for the long term, it will need to work for the Chinese.
Girish’s response
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Well here it is you who is lying to yourself. Just like any poor country, Indian do go overseas for education and work. Chinese are very similar in doing so (doesn’t matter if you do not believe so). Singapore has a democratic goverment and Chinese ethic are only in majority of population. This is laughable when you say that people in Singapore live under Chinese ethic rule. Oh you do not understand the difference between democratic governance and authoritrian rule. Are you saying that millions of Chinese living in west are living under their western masters and love their master? aaah..
Well atleast you agree that China want to be democratic but you still prefer to do India bashing if we talk about democracy.
And enlightened “dictatorship” of CCP? aah wonderful…a perfect slavery mindset.
On growth India liberated economy 15 years later so that lead of China will remain there and thus no hard feelings.
When you laugh while saying that India’s growth is dependent on outsourcing work of America, you are only proving a point about how less you know about Chinese economy and Indian economy.
Our growth doen’t come from outsourcing work, we are domestic market driven economy where as Chinese is export oriented manufacturing one. Chinese economy surviving by selling cheap goods in dollor stores.
Aah American economically weak will create more problem for Chinese and not Indian. First who will buy your cheap surplus goods? also what about the property bubble getting built in China? I am not one who favour any nation except my own. but better be advised, that arrogance will only be counter productive for Chinese as they are loosing friends now more rapidly in geopolictes. And thinking that they can finger anyone including America will be a mistake.
Kristal
@Lian1a:
“Don’t preach to me about democracy. I want democracy for China. Even the CCP is talking about democracy for China over time.”
>> You yourself acknowledge that people in your country only “talk” about democracy! We are not talking about piece-meal hollow reforms that rulers from Syria, saudi Arabia & others are throwing at discontent citizens. Genuine democracy is where there is no distinction between the ruler & the ruled. As i repeatedly reiterate, all countries have issues. But how the people affected by it go aboutsolving it is the key! True democracy empowers its citizens. Fake ones can just copy the “label” for brand value….. It’ll soon fade. The world will soon spot the difference.
“.But no Indians will trade a miserable poverty stricken life under the corrupt Indian “democracy” for a comfortable life under the increasingly enlightened “dictatorship” of China. ”
>> Now that’s the best joke i’ve heard all day Sir!Umaybe referring to people whose minds are focussed on the “materialistic” aspects of life. A true patriot (of any nation) will never give up his nation for anything. Talking about Indians living abroad, I swear by the Lord that i’ve seen these little “China Towns” in almost every major city in the world i’ve visited. A small enclave within an alien country where several chinese thrive on various jobs. As law enforcement colleagues there have pointed out, many of them were there on fake visas, to make a living! I’m not saying that this problem is unique to China. Its everywhere. There’s a whole lot of people who’d ready to do “anything” just to escape to greener pastures! Attributing that to only the Indians is just unfair. Now these people are those that onlyworry about their next meal. A true patriot wouldn’t do that.
And please don’t say that China is least corrupt! Not according to Transparency international. The problem is the veil of secrecy around your adminstration. As long as your government’s genuine, official intentions are notknown by the world, there’s always scope for mis-interpretation. Exactly what’s happening now! I’ve technically compared India’s corrruption fighting mechanisms in my personal visits there, & let me tell you that its not any different from other countries i’ve visited. The difference is that we can hear it openly because the Indians, like their colleagues in other “True” democracies elsewhere are able to speak about it in the open!
And deliberately mocking the Indians on this page is surely not a gentlemanly thing to do! To remind youi of what another Chinese blogger here posted, “..All men are equal!” So merely belittling the Indians here on this page as if they are from an inferior breed is, i say again, not a gentlemanly thing. If i may suggest, if you consider them as making wrong points, try telling them your side of the story – as a gentle man! There is no proper people-to-people communication between these 2 nations. And that’s the problem. Don’t complicate it furthur! There is no “White man’s burden” in this century. Not even in the dicionary!
John Chan
Tibetans are over-generous with their gratitude to their Indian hosts and are hesitant in reminding India of a small inconvenient truth: until 1951, the disputed border regions, Arurachal Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand, were neither Chinese nor Indian but Tibetan. Dalai Lama should ask Indian to give those historical Tibetan lands back and re-establish his theocratic serf kingdom again on those historical Tibetan lands..
Girish
@John Chan
You must understand along with Chinese policy makers that history cannot be used to make claims in todays world. Geographic had always been changing with time and had never been static. Histories had been subjected to manipulations too by goverments to fulfill objectives so that doesnt make a proof to claim. Also its useless to flight for China and India as they have reached a level where a war is never an option. Lets settle with what we have for better future.
And Tibetans are really generous and peaceful people unlike Chinese(CCP rules) although common Chinese are peaceful too
John Chan
It seems India insisting might is right, extending British imperial extension is India’s job, no wonder India continues to display hegemonic aggression non-stop in Asia. Returning historical Tibetan lands to the Tibetan is right thing to do.
Dude
The Tibetans are oppressed by the Chinese and their culture is being destroyed by the Chinese.
Tibetans and the Dalai Lama had to evacuate China and go to India where they wouldn’t be persecuted.
You want their lands to be given to China?
Mazo
“the disputed border regions, Arurachal Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand, were neither Chinese nor Indian but Tibetan.”
Nice story peddled by the Chinese Communists, unfortunately for you its not true in the least. The so called “Tibet” extended only to the West of the McMohan line that the British Controlled. There are official British documents to prove this so don’t bother posting some third hand account on a blog as proof of your assertions.
As to Himachal and Uttarkand these areas were settled by Indians long before the British got to India-not Tibetans, there are British era administrative buildings and British era bridges and roads. Trying to question the legitimacy of these areas is like questioning if Nanjing should be returned to the Japanese.
The inconvenient truth is: Tibet was an independent state that signed away its bordering territories with the British Raj in a peace treaty with the British Raj. The Chinese later in the 1950s conquered Tibet and now demand all of its former possessions back, which is absurd. The Chinese also claim that they were never present at the Tibet-Indian negotiations and thus the Raj’s border is meaningless. This is again an absurd claim because China’s presence was irrelevant because Tibet was independent at the time (If it wasn’t independent, why did the Chinese have to conquer it again?)
Mazo
“Mao should never have retreated after defeating the Indians. The Zhang Nan people are all wishing they can be under the protection of the Chinese government who are giving those Chinese citizens in Tibet a much higher incomes and standard of living than those in Zhang Nan. Time to liberate an important part of China still under foreign colonial rule.”
What is this Zhang Nan ? There never was a place called Zhang whatever! Attacking an ill prepared and ill-equipped Indian army and making quick gains is one thing but waging a prolonger war against a mobilized opponent is another thing. Mao realized the large-scale mobilization that was going on and the growing armies that were being brought to the East where previously none existed and wisely decided to retreat and call victory before the PLA was thrown out!
Unlike China, anybody is free to travel to Arunachal Pradesh and speak to the people there. Nobody wants to join China. In fact it is people in Tibet that is occupied for China that want to be free from Chinese government and that is why they are setting themselves on fire! If Tibetans wanted Higher income, they would have worshipped a money making cult like the Communist Party of China, not follow Buddhism! Also, China is too poor to offer what those people want – freedom.
If China wants they can try and liberate Zhang Nan or whatever you want to call it. But remember that India will liberate you from your life if you try.