While many have put their faith in a Code of Conduct some wonder if China is stalling for time. A real solution may take years, if ever.
The South China Sea is often presented as one of the world’s thorniest territorial disputes. A group of objective, completely disinterested observers, however, would likely find this characterization peculiar. Indeed, to these hypothetical people, it would seem painfully obvious what needed to be done to at least significantly reduce the tensions in the South China Sea. Such a plan would likely start with four simple steps:
Step 1: Put sovereignty issues to one side. These are too complex and too emotive to be solved in the foreseeable future.
Step 2: Establish who claims what. China, for example, is extremely protective of its sovereignty, but it has never made a precise declaration about which areas of the South China Sea it actually owns (vaguely drawing dashes on a map doesn’t count). Claims should be filed with the UN’s International Court of Justice by a certain date – complete with latitude or longitude coordinates – or be considered frivolous by the rest of the world.
Step 3: Use UNCLOS wherever possible. Here’s a happy coincidence: all South China Sea claimants have ratified the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. That should make this situation so much easier to handle. For areas that are not contested, UNCLOS clearly lays out the rights of the claimant state and also of non-claimant states in territorial waters and exclusive economic zones. Any problems and the Convention (Article 279 ff.) also has a detailed dispute-resolution mechanism.
Step 4: Neutralize the contested areas. If the disputants really want to maintain peace and stability in the South China Sea – and they all say that they do – then they obviously need to draw up a set of rules governing what is and is not allowed in disputed zones. They could call it a Code of Conduct, or some something of the sort. Likely rules would include: the demilitarization of disputed areas; refraining from any provocative rhetoric or action, such as new construction projects on contested islands; no exploration for, or exploitation of, marine resources, unless the claimants agree to do it jointly; and the establishment of a dispute resolution mechanism, probably under the auspices of the ICJ.
Photo Credit: Wikicommons
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Bankotsu
"USA is an alien of Asia, it will leave one way or another, it is unchangeable eventuality."
That's what the China military build up is for. If U.S economy continues to decline, sooner or later their unipolar system will crumble.
ACT
@Bankotsu
even you admit that the PRC military buildup is to give the coup-de-grace to American leadership. how quaint.
Bankotsu
I think it is only to push the U.S out of Asia where U.S doesn't belong, China doesn't have the means for global "leadership" aka hegemonic unipolar system.
…The proposed “deal” envisaged that after China has its own aircraft carriers — it remains the only major naval power currently without such a capability — the Pacific region could be divided into two areas of responsibility.“
(The Chinese officer said) You, the US, take Hawaii East and we, China, will take Hawai West and the Indian Ocean. Then you will not need to come to the western Pacific and the Indian Ocean and we will not need to go to the Eastern Pacific. If anything happens there, you can let us know and if something happens here, we will let you know,” Keating recalled…
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/china-proposed-division-of-pacific-indian-ocean-regions-we-declined-us-admiral/459851/
ACT
@Bankotsu
"….push the US out of asia where it doesn't belong"
and seeing the expansionistic and imperialistic designs you favor, you do? do you have any idea of the kind of military force that would take, much less what the response of the US would be? Let's assume for the sake of politeness, that–maybe–in the one-in-200 million chance that the US doesn't attempt to intervene or respond, that you actually manage to accomplish this. What then? you have people who will hate you, your nation will become an international paraiah, and your government will face a continuous guerilla warfare movement by all the nations you seek to have under your thumb, as they were three centuries ago.
now, here's what reality would look like: the PRC invades taiwan….or takes the Senkakus or the SCS by force; via mutual defense pacts with Japan, Korea, or the Philippines or Taiwan, or via a request for aid from Vietnam, the US begins raids on Chinese military bases via bases in Kazakstan, Guam, Kaneda Air Station, etc. The 7th fleet moves in, and the PRC's navy is decimated with minimal initial US casualties. the PRC responds with DF-21 Ds and ASCMs, crippling the American fleets and bases in the area; the US, with its initial fleets disabled, either a) sends more ships in, b) gathers land forces for a military invasion (least likely) c) starts a bombing campaign (most likely). failing this, the conflict would go nuclear. game over. So, you can see just how idiotic and senseless any attempt to steal territory that you deem "sovereign" from other nations is, i assume…. or will you continue to blindly believe that the US will not respond, and can some how be thwarted, if you and yours continue to try to ressurrect your empire?
Cyrus
How do you propose that? That won't happen unless the nations of Asia invites America and as long as their is a right to innocent passage.
Might as well get used to reality that the US is here to stay and China won't be controlling the Philippines, the sooner gormless Chinese bloggers would realize that the better.
Gray
I think Japan might have a different take on that little arrangement.
nirvana
@Bankotsu,
By about the 90s, the US was in a process of "pivoting" out of Asia-Pacific. A number of military bases had been closed. Was China pushing for such de-escalation? NO. It was the end of the Cold War. The US military withdrawal was done voluntarily, or at the request of the host countries (Philippines, Thailand,…). Now, the US is "pivoting" back. Was China the reason for such strategy? YES. So keep "pushing" as PLA generals do, if you are nostalgic of the Cold War era.
Octavian
China is a neo-imperialist nation in the vain of Japan circa 1930's. All Asian nation ought to sign a collective defense pact in case of Chinese aggression.
nirvana
The author quoted: “But is China serious about an effective Code of Conduct?” he asks. “I think the answer is no. A really effective code would constrain China’s freedom of manoeuver in the South China Sea, and big countries don’t like that.”
I would like to enlarge this question:
- Was China serious when it claimed that astronomer Guo Shoujing made sun measurements on Scarborough shoal in the 13th century?
- Was China serious when it did not respond to the UNCLOS 2009 deadline to publsh China’s continental shelf limits?
- Was China a serious UNSC permanent member when it made a last arm sale to Col Khaddafi?
- Was China serious when it claimed in the introduction of its Constitution that “man exploiting man” has been eradicated in the PRC?
- Was China serious when it concluded that Mao was 30% wrong and 70% right?
- Was Mao serious when he told Japan Premier Tanaka that Japan should not apologize for its WWII crime?
Deng Xiaoping on the other hand was serious when he taught “bide our time, hide our capability”.
Shorty
All Acronyms in Politics suc
SE Asia rolls out red carpets. $$ There are enough Chinese embedded to overcome any issue.
Manila always has the open pockets diplomacy. $$
Vietnam will deal with China the way it deals with any intruder
talking points
The diplomat should take care to make sure the latest comments on top, not at the bottom. The SCS issue exists of course, but the problem is purely caused by greedy Phillipines, Vietnam and US. China is for status quo and peace. The real strategic future of Asia is how Indonesia develops. It is more important then self absorbed Australia and India. If China builds its relationship with Indonesia right, rest of countries are just side shows. Structurally, US and Australia can not build a lasting and trusting relationship with Indonesia, which I won't go into too much detail.
John Chan
Suharto had been American’s lackey for 30 years from 1968 – 1998, and suppressed the Chinese in Indonesia harshly.
JohnX
They were communist sympathizers and were punished accordingly.
Suharto said so and we know that politicians never lie about issues relating to their countries.
Bankotsu
I think this issue will continue until the world becomes a multipolar world and the U.S unipolar system ends. That will take time.
Cyrus
I beg to differ, this will go on until the Chinese Dragon looses its wings and comes back to Earth.
Gutter Oil
@bankotsu
on the second thought, maybe this issue will continue until china ends its bullying ways! dude, nobody wants china on the helm…nobody does…they just want your money dude…take away your money out of the equation and you will find out that china is nothing but a second hand, trying-hard copycat…
as for as the world is concerned bankotsu, the only thing that china didn't steal and copy yet is DEMOCRACY…hmmm…
John Chan
@Gutter Oil,
It seems you are very jealous, resentful and fear of China’s success, your wish is not realistic, it is a despair howl.
As the USA’s debt increases and China’s wealth increases, does it look like to you somebody is taking money from China? It seems your despair is making you lose logical sense.
All the Chinese products available in the USA or in the world for that matter have superior design and quality; do they look like trying-hard copy to you? Perhaps you are so poor that you even cannot afford Made-in-China, so you are ranting out of frustration.
Gutter Oil
…and the pigs can fly!
have you ever heard of an old adage ' if it breaks, it must be made from china"?
come on john chan, chinese-made products are dime-by the-dozen! in other words, they're cheap!
just like what i've said, the only thing you didn't copy/fake/steal yet is 'DEMOCRACY'…why don't you start doing it now?
Bankotsu
It okay that no one likes China on the helm. As long as the U.S unipolar system is destroyed, I will be satisfied.
Gutter Oil
dream on!
John Chan
Successful solution only can be achieved when everybody wants to have a solution; imposed solution never works and will not be long lasting. Successful solution need compromises, but for the moment there are too many people have too many ideas for their own interests; they will not compromise for a solution that is wanted by everybody.
Sometimes people needs to let event run its own course, wait for the time to be rip, then a successful solution can be arrived; for example people has to wait until the US realizes it cannot gain anything from pivoting to Asia-Pacific and leave Asia-Pacific alone; people also has to wait for the Philippines and Vietnam to realize they are members of SE Asia not a lackey of an foreign power, they only can benefit by compromising for the common good of SE Asia not by seeking untitled gains thru the backing of foreign powers.
Therefore the best solution for the SCS disputes is wait.
John Chan
Aliens cannot stay long, be it Romans, British, French or Germans, they all left Asia and gone back home sooner or later, USA, the Philippines and Vietnam must realize such fact, USA is an alien of Asia, it will leave one way or another, it is unchangeable eventuality.
USA should make a prudent decision to leave Asia in good terms, and not to repeat the mistakes the British and French made.
Duke
Tell me what do you have to force the US out? A severely crippled, faltering economy without any hope for recovery ; a military, particularly a navy still lagging far behind the US' & its closest allies in any aspects; an illegitimate authoritarian regime ruthlessly oppressing & exploiting its own people; a failed diplomacy just scaring & pushing other countries in the region into the US' open arms: that's the cold hard reality hindering China from rising to the status of a real world power!
John Chan
@Duke,
USA likes to proclaim a lot of things that it is not, for example, it proclaims it supports democracy and cares human rights, but it bombs and kills to assert its imperialism in the name of democracy and human rights; it proclaims in the American dream everybody has a fair chance to move up in the social ladder, but in fact only 1% has the free ride on the back of the 99% which is getting poor by the year; it proclaims democracy, but in fact it is a police state enforced by Patriot Act that was passed by the Congress without public debated; …
As the above American fallacy shows, one wonder how much true is there in your proclaims about American military superiority, the success of American diplomacy, other countries buying into the USA propaganda, the real strength of USA as a real power, and the morality it has to bash other nations shamelessly.
Gutter Oil
@Duke dude, whoa, pleaseee don't put words into my mouth! LOL,,
Duke
@Chan,
You're absolutely right, comrade. Those '1% bastards' are ruthlessly exploiting the rest 99% of honest Chinese people. Bo Xilai's wife, Gu Kailai recently has been charged with murder of a British businessman involved in helping their family transfer overseas illicit funds involved billions of dollars!
ACT
@ John Chan
remove the stake out of your head before you tell us to remove the splinter in our eyes.
ariel
@Chan
China should not preach about morality and lecture about democracy. China is an aggrandizing power, an opportunistic country – it waits for conditions to be ripe to strike. The whole world is aware about what China has been doing in Tibet, and how systematically they have been eliminating Tibetans. China is controlled by criminals. It always was right from the time of Mao, a criminal who was responsible for the deaths of millions. Your argument about the US may be music to the ears of your criminal masters, but it certainly does not fool the countries of South Asia and Far East.
John Chan
@ariel,
No one is preaching others with moral authority, Chinese bloggers merely point out the West is “pot calling kettle black.” But only the shameless West is insisting their words must be taken as given truth; let bygone be bygone, their ugly past should be white washed and glossed up so that they can lecture the world on the moral high ground, they don’t like anybody to tell them that they are a wolf in a suite, a devil with a human face but the heart of a beast.
nirvana
>>"The best solution for the SCS disputes is wait" (said John Chan)
This is again the "2nd law of thermodynamics" argument= Entropy increases with time and so does disorder. Disorder is best for you? Just wait.
But are the laws of thermodynamics applicable to life, to humans, to social science? If they do, we would still be unicellular bacterias. As any form of life, we EVOLVE. Moreover, God gave us conscience. We don't believe any more that the sun revolves around our planet. More and more we don't believe blindly in what our governments say. More and more we travel, interact with, and understand our pairs. We feel more secure when our problems are internationalized and solved globally.
Cyrus
What do you consider the Chinese? You are foreigners and we would rather have the Americans that the Chinese. This has been reiterated by the son of Lee Kuan Yew in China.
The faster you learn that the better, hence the US would be here to stay as long as China keeps on upping the ante on the disputes. You need to realize that strong arm tactics won't work in the dispute resolution. Philippines are willing to compromise on the Spratley Islands but never on Scarborough and Panatag Shoal. Those are the Philippines and will never give them to anyone else.
John Chan
@Cyrus,
Singapore’s prime minister warned Asian nations the danger of picking side between China and the USA, you are fabricating stories.
Cyrus
I forgot there is such a thing as censure in China.
Here are the sources:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/07/world/asia/singapores-prime-minister-warns-china-on-view-of-us.html?_r=1
John Chan
@Cyrus,
Shame on you citing a liar’s words as an evidence, it is a perjury in the eyes of court.
nirvana
Between two evils, better not pick the one sitting next to you. Singapour people know that. Vietnamese know that too well. In fact, most Asian countries, starting with those having a border with China, especially those with a large ethnic Chinese, DISTRUST the PRC. They know why their compatriots with Chinese ancestors prefer to live together with them and not to return to "mother land".
Cyrus
Liar? Because it did not came from China? Sad JC that Singapore is even lecturing you.
Gutter Oil
dude why are you afraid of the americans pivoting to the Asia-Pac? is this a tell-tale sign of a bullies afraid of their own shadow? John Chan can you enlighten me again why you're not claiming these territories stole by the russians?
1. North korea – Han, Ching dynasty
2. North vietnam – Han to Tang, Ming dynasties
3. Outer Mongolia – Yuan, Ching dynasty
4. Outer manchuria – Ming, Ching dynasty
5. Part of Kazakhstan – Ching dynasty
hmmmm… now it makes me wonder if china's audacity and gall is just but a show of force….
John Chan
@Gutter Oil,
No doubt those territories were part of China once upon a time, but it is not right now, perhaps they may return to China in the future at whatever the reasons. India belonged to British once upon a time, but it is not now, can you say the British is afraid of India because British is not claiming India as its own? It seems your logic questioning China not claiming those lost lands at the moment is puzzling.
China is a peace-loving nation, it does not claim lands that do not belong to it in the current circumstance, but it will defend its territory integrity from invaders, be it the US, Russia, Japan, India, the Philippines or Vietnam.
Observer
@ Gutter Oil
I asked similar questions to chinese posters before but they were full of excuses. Just a few weeks ago, Russia ships shot at chinese ships and killed chinese but not a word from china and chinese. Full of shame and humiliation all over again. They are quick to say "smack around" or "drop a few bombs and missles" or "historic evidences" with smaller nations such as Vietnam and Philipppines but would not dare to take on big bullies. How sad and how pathetic.
nirvana
@Gutter Oil,
That is the difference between people that have evolved (like the British) and those that are degenerating. At the end of WWII, the British were clearly victorious, yet they understood quickly that the lessons of history. So they withdrew from their former colonies. YOU BELONGED TO US, BUT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO MASTER YOUR OWN DESTINY.
On the opposite side we have the CCP, that played only a faint role in WWII, that invoked China's imperialistic past, to hide the massive failure of their first 30 years of governance, to hide the crimes they did to Chinese identity during the Cultural Revolution, to keep the illusion that there is some "Chinese characteristics" in their neo-facism program.
venze
The bottom line is China wants to test its strength and thwarts the US influence in East and Southeast Asia. Soon, Xi and Li will takeover the presidency and premiership, they need a year or two to consolidate their positions and power.
Meanwhile, South China Sea remains a strategic platform for international diplomatic activities if not adventures. (vzc1943)
Russ
Geez Vic, it all seems so straight forward and clear to you doesn't it. It is ridiculous to assume anything about China's 'rise' being that it isn't clear how much real long-term wealth has been created, and how long it can keep their banks 'cooking-the-books'; added to that is the almost pantomime manner in which the corrupt & murderous old dears in power go about changing the guard. And, by the way I seem to remember Vietnam kicking the Chinese posteriors last time they had a crack at them back in 79. The danger of the territory dispute is that the old-dears have been pushing the quasi-fascist/nationalist line for so long to the gullible public that when an issue like this arises they find themselves backed into a corner of their own making – having to saber rattle to keep the peace -as it were – at home.
Leonard R.
Excellent article.
—–
"But what is China’s ultimate objective in all of this? “They just want to play for time, and to drag it out as long as possible,” argues Storey. “What is China’s end game? I don’t think they know themselves.”
—–
vic
China wants to be the Godfather of the SCS.
cam
There is a big gap between what the chinese wants and what the chinese can do. So far, the chinese can be seen as a low class pirate in SCS, Vic. This is a hard reality for you to swallow. I think what hat the chinese could do is to swallow the bitterness and admit they are just a bunch of sickmen of asia.
Vic
Every Chinese believes that time is on China's side. China's power will grow rapidly, and the gap with the US will shrink dramatically. The entity that is "persona non grata" in the SCS is US. The default strategy is to simply carry on as is. As far as relations with Philippines is concerned, China should simply wait for a change in administration. As for Vietnam, which is an upstart, China will deal with her as in centuries past. And for the rest in SE Asia, normal relations exist.
Cyrus
That is if a new administration would be friendly with the Chinese, though there is growing call for such an action in the Philippines after the US refuses to retain the equipment of the cutters to the Philippines.
Hence, Philippines is in talks with Italy to acquire the Maestrale Class Frigates and other Military Equipment this has been the first time in the History of the Armed Forces who had always favor US made equipments. Though a welcome progress since we have shaken the yoke of US monopoly in its Arm's sale.
vic
@Cyrus
Philippines can ill afford to purchase meaningful weapons. The US supplies Philippines with hand-me-downs at very knock-down prices. The US, the biggest arm dealer in the world, would love to sell Philippines weapons at full price rate. Unfortunately, there is very little money in the kitty. Mutual Defense Treaty can only go so far, there is a limit to "love".
Cyrus
You did not get what I was pointing at. The Italians are willing to sell us Maestrale Class Frigates with weapons intact. We did ask the United States not to remove the Equipment in the Hamilton Cutter but it was denied. Well if they don't want to give us the weapons then we go to the Italians.
Observer
Yes, china will deal with Vietnam as in centuries past, full of shame and humilation in countless defeats.
With military record of china against competent military forces, I would not brag if I was you.
ACT
@Vic
just how much of a hypocrite can you be? on the one hand, you say that the US is awful, that its policies destroy the lives of millions, and have ruined its position as a moral arbiter. When was the last time you took a look in the mirror? On top of ruining the lives of millions of native tibetans and Uighurs, the PRC has also fought destructive and ruinous wars, to say nothing of the havoc it causes on the high seas. What's more, you dare say that China would be a better global leader when you also advocate the return of Vietnam, Korea and other neighbors to vassalage; "China will deal with her as in centuries past", you said. I take it that means the invasion of Vietnam and the installment of a puppet ruling class that hands Vietnamese sovereignty to China in all but name? That was, after all, the policy of beijing in centuries past.
Judging by this behavior, Beijing does not deserve superpower status: it is not now, nor will it be, a superpower if it continues such behavior.
Vic
@Act
Power is not given, power is taken. You do not ask to be a power.
ACT
@vic
and so this somehow justifies the monstrous acts that you advocate on the part of the PRC? Don't make me laugh; you're just as bad as every other crackpot nationalist who advocates the glory of his nation at the cost of millions of innocent lives. You disgust me, sir, knowing that you advocate the deaths and virtual enslavement of millions of your neighbors for some delusion of former grandeur and an utterly unapologetic, racist, and xenophobic view of the world that only China is somehow fit to lead, and that the Chinese people are somehow deserving of this position of being morally, intellectually and racially superior to all others. You may not realize it, but it's obvious in every act that your government takes in its foreign policy and when it tries to expand into places that it does not rightfully own.
vic
@Act
You are a real pessimist. You are imagining death and destruction everywhere when China is in the driver's seat.
One thing is definite, it won't be as bad as when the West is in the driver's seat. It is impossible to beat the West when it comes to the crime of genocide.
nirvana
@vic,
And what will power give? Power destroys nations. It divides people of the same country, same race, same religion. Power leads to lies, conspiracy, murder and mass violence. Power will haunt your dead, torture your soul. Kissinger once told Mao: "Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac". That's what it is, a violent drug for a short instant of pleasure, but with massive after-effect destruction.
Take my advice, vic. Cultivate righteousness. That's the real force.
Watcher
Strange that you call the US "persona non grata". This maybe the Chinese perspective, since they hamper Chinese aggression – like they did Japanese in WWII, but the rest of Asia is overall welcoming the US as a counterweight to China. What you should be asking yourself is how China got in this situation. Not long ago it used to almost the opposite (your neighbors welcomed a rising China as a counterweight to the US).
vic
The only ones protesting are Philippines and Vietnam. Vietnam will have to show deference where deference is due, as in centuries past. For Philippines, a change in administration from a very pro-American one will make a huge difference. Philippines needs economic aid and guidance for it to support a ballooning population which is getting ever harder to manage.
nirvana
Frustrating isn't it? A pro-American democracy and a completely opposite country, both resisting China's coercion. how can we explain this? Who is the main cause: China or the US? Come on vic, you know laws of thermodynamics, therefore you have critical thinking. Show it!
nirvana
@Vic
I don't think that "every Chinese believes that time is on China side". I don't think the members of the CEFC, the PLA generals and the millions that subscribed to the Global Times believe what you said. Below are a few extracts of the Global Times to prove my point. Perhaps you disagree with these authors?
Global Times Sept 29th 2011
======================
“…it is probably the right time for us to reason, think ahead and strike first before things gradually run out of hands.”
Global Times Oct 25th 2011
======================
“This public sentiment will influence China's future foreign policy. Countries currently in sea disputes with China may have failed to spot this tendency, as they still perceive China through conventional wisdom. Thus, the South China Sea, as well as other sensitive sea areas, will have a higher risk of serious clashes. If these countries don't want to change their ways with China, they will need to prepare for the sounds of cannons.”
Global Times June 21st 2012
======================
“China should clearly state that if it decides to fight back, it will also take back the islands previously occupied by Vietnam. If Vietnam wants to start a war, China has the confidence to destroy invading Vietnam battleships, despite possible objections from the international community.”
Global Times, 29th Aug 2012
=======================
“It is misleading to think that as long as China exercises restraint, problems would automatically be solved while China's national strength increases.”
vic
@nirvana
Military people talk tough, that is their sphere. Statesmen use diplomacy. and war is always a failure of diplomacy. It is a matter of logic that China has time on its time. If China has a 50-50 chance of defeating the US navy in the SCS now, it will have a much better chance in the future as China grows in economic and military relative strength. If the chance grows to 80-50 in ten years' time in China's favor, then obviously it is better to wait till the future. And if you have 100% certainty, then the other side withdraws without anyone having to fire a shot. So, it is better to wait. Perhaps, there will never be a need for a fight.
vic
errata: 80-20, not 80-50 chance.
nirvana
@vic,
You may not have time, because we know WHY you bide your time. You don't sound as you believe you have time, otherwise you would not be split internally. The CCP doesn't have time. It has a last bullet: ultra-nationalism. This bullet will go straight into its foot (or its head).
JohnX
With Chinese supporters like Vic, you have to wonder why citizens of Chinas neighbors cant wait to embrace the loving strangle hold of China.
(sarcasm)
vic
@JohnX
Everyone should kiss and make up.
Comedy
Yes, that's quite right.
It's look like a comedy when an uninvited guest burst into other's house.
The guest just sit there and do nothing.
The owner is just too weak to get rid of the guest.
The police say it's not enought evidence to arrest the guest.
So every one stuck in where they are.
There is 3 way too solve the problem:
if the guest willing to get it's a** out of the owner house.
if the owner strong enought to kick the guest a** out of his home.
if the police reasonable enought to take the action, before something really bad happen.
Cam
The Vietnamese think the righteousness is on their side. As far as China is concerned, the Vietnamese is ready to kill any invaders, who dare to set foot on the Vietnamese soil, just like their fathers, their ancestors did to the invaders from the North for the last few thousands of years.
John Chan
@Cam,
The history tells a different story about “Vietnamese is ready to kill any invaders.” French invaded VN and it became a colony because China could not defend VN. French ruled VN unopposed about 150 years. Fascist Japanese invaded VN because French could not defend VN, so Japanese ruled VN for a while, then the French returned to rule VN again after WWII.
With China’s support in arms and men, then VN kicked the French out of NV only meanwhile the imperialist American ruled SV and bombard NV for ten years, without China and USSR supply of arms and men, NV would have collapsed long time ago, because NV just could not produce weapons and food to sustain itself.
In 1979 war, only VN could claim victory when its territory and defence forces got overrun and its capital was under the threat of PLA’s bombardment.
It is a dead end for VN not to be cooperative with China, it is more constructive for VN to be realistic and practical like its ancestors, less bellicose and big mouth is more beneficial to both VN and China.
Cyrus
Distorting history? If the USSR did not help VN, NV was an ally of the Soviet Union hence the Chinese attack of 1979. Though, that incursion happened when majority of Viets Forces were taking care of the Khmer Rouge.
NV have proven they care capable against insurmountable odds, it even confuses the US why NV can keep on fighting despite the losses that they suffered.
nirvana
@John Chan,
Your version of history is very simplistic. You omitted the following historical facts:
- In 1946, general Lu Han had 200 thousands troops in NVietnam (that they looted extensively). When the French gunboats arrived in the Tonkin gulf, Lu Han quickly withdrew to China.
- From 1946 to 1950, Vietnam fought alone against France, from North to South. China aids were massive only after the Korean war ended.
- In 1954, after Dien Bien Phu, China (and USSR) forced Ho Chi Minh to accept the partition of Vietnam.
- In the 1960s, when the US 7th fleet sailed into the Tonkin Gulf to bomb NVietnam, China never mentioned the “dotted line”.
- In 1971, Mao told Pham Van Dong “there is a China saying that a short broom cannot sweep out the cobweb from the ceiling. We can not sweep out Chiang from Taiwan and your Vietnamese broom is too short [to win your war]”. A couple months after, Mao received Nixon in Beijing…
Observer
@JC,
Here you go again. Spreading propaganda and 1/2 truth stories.
I will tell you this about Vietnam vs. French invaders = Dien Bien Phu. Enough said.
Where are your sources about china supported Vietnam with men? You mean like how you told us US F-22 planes were mad in china? I asked you several times about sources and about what year and what battle that Vietnam and Philippines attacked china and took chinese islands but so far, still silent from you.
About Vietnam vs. Chinese invaders. Let see.
1979 = tens of thousands of chinese soldiers lay dead at the border. See this link = http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1879849,00.html
Here are a few more about how Vietnam fought against Chinese invaders for the last few thousands years.
1788 – Emperor Nguyen Hue defeat over 200K Quing in 5 days
1427 – Emperor Le Loi killed over 300K Ming soldiers
1257, 1284, 1288 – Commander Tran Hung Dao defeat between 300K -500K Mongols/Yuan Chinese soldiers
938 Battle of Bach Dang – the end of china reign forever
How about china? Let see. Against Japanese at Nanjing and Hong Kong, against Britain at Opium Wars, against Machus, against Mongols. Do tell us how chinese fought against those competent military forces. What were the results.
A broken and empty drum is the loudest one. Inferior complex is hard to swallow indeed.
Observer
It should be "made" not "mad" in previous post.
John Chan
@Observer,
The British was fighting the Japanese in HK.
In according to Vietnamese logic, “in the end” Chinese wins over all those invaders, even Vietnam is huffing and puffing, begging and kissing the Whiteman to protect them from China even though those Whiteman have been bombing and killing the Vietnamese by the millions and poisoned them with Agent Orange, Agent Purple, Agent White, …
BTW, broken and empty drum makes no sound; VN is not going to go anyway with your kind of intelligence.
Cyrus
Since we have limited contact with the Chinese in battle I will site battle of Yuldong and Battle of Hill Erie. Do you have any facts that showed you won over the Filipino's?
romney big tit
to destroy Vietnam back to the stone age prehistoric quite easy,
china just dropped nuclear bombs and missiles to Vietnam and bombed all roads in vietnam, it was enough to vietnam back to prehistoric stone cruelty again, after that will be civil unrest and rebellion in vietnam, forever erased from the map of the world , and it's fairly easy to do without having to invasion china army for without vietnam occupied
Observer
@ JC,
When Vietnam defeat chinese invaders multiple times, she did not need any help (see the year and the battle name in my previous post). Remember the fearsome Mongols? Little Vietnam defeat them not one, not two, but three times WITHOUT anyone help. Where was china? Why don't you tell the readers the reason, JC? LOL.
Oh, still silent about US F-22 planes were made in china? Still silent about what year Vietnam and Philippines attacked and took chinese land/islands? How pathetic.
Observer
@ romney,
Another clueless chinese talking big talk. No bombs and missiles for Russia? Remember them? The same ones that shot at chinese ships and killed chinese? Remember Japan? Remember how they treat chinese women? Dare to drop a few bombs and missiles on them? Why not a word but full of shame and humiliation and losing face.
Make sure the missiles and bombs would work or they would crash and burn at the launch pads, typical of quality “made in china”…LOL.
For the last few thousands years, china and chinese tried and tried and tried to invade/annex little Vietnam but still fail and fail and fail. It is their nature, could not fight but could talk big.
Filipino defender
Well you chinese can keep waiting because no one accepts your bs claims no one
JohnX
An excellent posting.
It succinctly states the problems of the South China Sea and clearly shows why problems are not being solved in the region.