While imperfect, America's experience with South Korea could provide important lessons on how to develop stronger ties with Pakistan.
It might be difficult to overestimate the iniquitousness of Korean pop star Psy's hit single “Gangnam Style.” From supermarkets in the United States to cricket matches in South Asia, “Gangnam Style” has been played and imitated a countless number of times. In an era of viral media, the song has proved to be a cultural epidemic.
“Gangnam Style,” though criticizing materialism in contemporary Korean society, is in many ways the de-facto theme song for Brand Korea, whose exports were once seen as second-rate, but now is giving its Japanese and American competitors a run for their money. Hyundai, Samsung, and K-Pop all signal the emergence of corporate Korea on the world stage. It is a transition that perhaps began with the 1988 Summer Olympics in Seoul, but is reaching new heights today.
Americans were shocked to learn this month that Psy took part in anti-U.S. rallies in 2002 and 2004 and, in the latter incident, sang lyrics from another Korean band that exhorted his countrymen to “Kill those Yankees.” Not only is the anti-Americanism virulent, but, more generally, the expressly political nature of the lyrics is glaring. Psy contradicts the American stereotype of the apolitical, business or fun-only Asian. But beyond this stereotype, what the shock in the U.S. points toward is an unfortunate American tone-deafness toward the politics — especially the politics at the sub-elite level — of other countries.
Photo Credit: The White House (Flickr)
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A_Pakistani
As a Pakistani, I want to thank, from the bottom of my heart, Yura and then Talisa, for favoring Pakistan. Pakistan is very misunderstood country.
Can Anjaan tell me, if Pakistan is the only country who sponsors terrorism then why India need 12 consulates in Afghanistan?
Same question was asked on BBC, by Pakistani ambassador to the UK to Indian ambassador and he had no answer. Pakistan has lost over 33,000 people but US and India still complaining about 9/11 and 26/11.
One thing i never understood, I dont care if Pakistani gov admits it or not, if Ajmal Kasab was from a small village in Punjab why he Hindi was so good. I saw his interview on India Channel. This is my opinion alone.
I have some serious doubt about 26/11.
Anjaan
@ Al,
It is simple :
1. You have to understand that Pakistan is the major non-NATO ally of the Americans, unlike Saddam's Iraq. What the Americans did with Bin laden, was (a) to save its ally from major humiliation and (b) protecting Pakistan from US legal sanctions, by sweeping the issue under the carpet.
2. The Americans did the same when Pakistan's Dr A Q Khan's nuke Walmart was exposed. The Americans, instead of punishing Pakistan, accepted the bogus argument that the Pakistani Army had no knowledge of the proliferation activities.
3. If killing of Bin laden was not true, as argued by some Pakistanis, then why is the Doctor, that managed to collect DNA samples of Bin Laden, is put behind bars in Pakistan …. and not being released , in spite of repeated appeal from the Americans …… ?
Talisa
@Anjaan: Your points 1 and 2 are hearsay. Regarding your point #3, that doctor was actually sentenced by a local tribal elders council, he was imprisoned because 1) he had ties to a banned jihadist outfit and 2) he infected many children in that area with polio or whatever other disease he was pretending to immunize them from.
And before you clamor for punishing Pakistan for nuclear proliferation you should know that a wikileaks cable showed a case of nuclear proliferation from India to Iran, would you ask for your country to be punished too, then?
Li FeiLong
I really do not think so in our life time…when someone kills your family and destroy your dreams and well being its never going to be forgotten. Revenge runs deep into the human physic, especially in different cultures such as Pakistan. What the US has created is a enemy its grand children will have to fight in the future. The historical trail of devastation by US Foreign Policies has made Americans fearful of traveling to other counties and isolated from the majority of the world community.
Amit Parmar
Pakistan is totally different from South Korea.
Pakistan has the following issues that the ROK does not:
It trains arms and funds terrorists as state policy, then unleashes them on India, Afghanistn, NATO, etc.
It proliferates nuclear weapons tech to countries such as Iran, North Korea, Libya, etc.
It relies on handouts to survive economically.
Its population is largely brainwashed by an extremist tainted education system.
Lets not forget that Osama Bin Laden lived within waving distance of Pakistans most important military academy for 5 years. During those 5 years the Pakistani government lied about his location.
Yura
@Amit Parmar: One can always trust an Indian to spam internet forums with anti-Pakistan propaganda instead of thoroughly researched facts. Every single one of your arguments can be easily debunked and you have just used brief generic taglines instead of giving any real analysis.
And about Osama bin Laden you should know two things. 1) The United States has produced no evidence at all a year and a half later that Osama bin Laden was ever located in some compound in Pakistan.
2) Top level officials in the United States government and high ranking officers of the US military command have said there is absolutely no evidence Pakistani state institutions knew Osama was in Abbottabad. If you're so sure Pakistan did know and lied about his location then obviously you have access to information that the United States government, military and intelligence do not.
Anjaan
The whole world knows the facts about Bin Laden ….. including the Paki Ministers and officials ………. only those Pakis with army connection, fed on a steady diet of misinformation and lies, believe in conspiracy theory ……. !!
Yura
Did you not read the above post I made? Did you not read the part where I wrote "Top level officials in the United States government and high ranking officers of the US military command have said there is absolutely no evidence Pakistani state institutions knew Osama was in Abbottabad"??? By your logic Hillary Clinton and the commanding officer of the SEAL Team 6 that carried out the operation have Pakistani army connection and are fed a steady diet of misinformation and lies by Pakistan's military.
I ask you again, how do you claim to know the "facts" about bin Laden when the US government, military and intelligence do not? What evidence do you say that from which even the top leadership of the US does not have, especially considering that they could not even prove Osama bin Laden was in that compound in Abbottabad? The world just took at face value the word of the country that lied about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.
Really Anjaan, did you even read any of what I posted before replying, or did you just quickly post your brief 2-sentence retorts while you and your buddy were busy gang-raping that 23 year-old woman in that bus? And anyway, given the rude and childish nature of your response you are obviously unable to discuss the matter rationally based on actual facts, but yes, you have definitely taught The Diplomat's readers a great deal about your nation's national character with your words!
Vic
I agree it is a weak comparison. The relationship between RoK and the United States is completely different than that of the relationship between Pakistan and the United States. If there is something in common however, it is the deceitful nature of pakistan and rok. You can attribute it to a generation of well off youths if you want, but it is still alarming in both cases.
rok wouldn't exist today if it weren't for the intervention by the United States in the DPRK invasion of rok in 1950. And yet fops like PSY and others villainize the United States? As bad as the absence of a sense of gratitude is the number of Koreans that the United States has had to absorb into its population, relieving RoK of significant population pressure that would have otherwise stunted its economic development.
Pakistan is no more reliable. Our ally who was with us post-9/11 to hunt down and neutralize those responsible for the terrorist attacks turned out to be harboring the number one fugitive from 9/11.
If there is any lesson to be learned from the unreliability of 'allies' like pakistan and rok it is that the United States is justified in pursuing its interests at the expense of rok and pakistan becaue they can't be trusted anyway.
Its time to think seriously about withdrawing from rok. The defense arrangement is burdensome to the United States, rok is now capable of defending itself from DPRK and it is now time for young anti-American nationalists in rok to more fully provide for their own defense. America's real ally in NE Asia is Japan and it is essential to more closely with Japan, even at the expense of rok.
The situation with pakistan is more complicated considering that successful withdrawal from Afghanistan depends heavily on the failed state, but the United States owes pakistan no particular loyalty, especially in the aftermath of such blatant betrayal. The United States needs to play its cards carefully until its troops are safely out of South Asia and at the same time needs to continue to align more closely with its natural regional ally – India
Yura
@Vic: "the United States is justified in pursuing its interests at the expense of rok and pakistan becaue they can't be trusted anyway."
Vic, trust is something that is supposed to go both ways, it is never unilateral, and most importantly, trust is always earned, it is never given away for free. What has the United States ever done to earn Pakistan's trust? Pakistan stood by the United States as a formal ally during the Cold War and the War on Terror but the US showed its thanks by continually stabbing it in the back at critical times when it most desperately needed America's help. The US has also conducted the whole affair in Afghanistan with complete disregard for Pakistan's core security concerns so it has no right to expect loyalty from Pakistan.
You are wrongly portraying the United States as the innocent victim of Pakistani and South Korean betrayal when in fact the reality is the opposite.
Anjaan
The Paki liar is at it again ……………. Britain and the US have been the most trusted and closest allies and mentors of Pakistan for over five decades …… provided all the military, diplomatic and economic assistance against India ………. !!!
Yura
Yes Anjaan, keep telling yourself these self-serving fantasies, none of what you are alleging ever happened, it's just your own paranoia talking, just like you people believe the US, China and Pakistan have formed an anti-India pact with one another. If you tell the people of these 3 countries that, they would die laughing.
Pradz
How can you compare Pakistan and South Korea. Pakistan has always been insecure of its existence that in order to keep the country united, Pakistan has fomented trouble with its neighbors, India, Afghanistan and Iran. Today, US is the most convenient punching bag. This article is completely flawed and misleading.
Yura
@Pradz: You are blaming the victim. Pakistan does not foment trouble with its neighbors, it is India that refuses to resolve the conflict in Kashmir peacefully by implementing the free and fair plebiscite under the resolution that the UN Security Council passed at India's own request. It is India, not Pakistan, that insists on maintaining its illegal military occupation of Kashmir from where it shuts off Pakistan's water supplies instead of pursuing a peaceful resolution under international law. India was the one who split Pakistan in half in a completely unprovoked invasion in 1971 and is today sponsoring terrorism against Pakistan from its consulates in Afghanistan. If you encircle Pakistan and threaten it with nuclear weapons you do not get to blame Pakistan for defending itself.
Re: Afghanistan, it is the one who refuses to renounce its illegal territorial claims on half of Pakistan and it is a well-documented fact that Afghanistan under Muhammad Daoud Khan, Dr. Najibullah and Hamid Karzai has continually sponsored separatists and subversive anti-state elements in Pakistan with massive levels of training and support. The day Afghanistan recognizes its border with Pakistan will be the day Pakistan will stop bothering it forever; it is Afghans who have continually stirred up trouble with Pakistan due to its Pashtun-chauvinist racism.
Re: Iran, Pakistan has had no historic problems with that country, it is well-known that Iran is the one who started the sectarian conflict inside Pakistan in a proxy war against Saudi Arabia, otherwise both sides are increasing their cooperation in a variety of fields and have remained traditional allies throughout most of the past.
As you can see, Pakistan has been embroiled in conflicts not of its choosing, and for you to accuse Pakistan of being the one that foments trouble because it's insecure of its existence is the height of intellectual dishonesty on your part.
Anjaan
@ Yura,
Stop lying you Paki …….. who are you trying to fool ……. Pakistan is the " State sponsor of Terrorism" ……?? !! …….. Kashmir is a non issue …… after the 1971 war defeat of Pakistan and the Shimla agreement, the issue was settled once and for all ….. the whole world including the UN recognizes this fact ………it is an issue manufactured and perpetuated by Pakistan, in order to justify state sponsoring of terrorism. You Pakis seem to have no shame at all …. even after Bin Laden was found to be living for over six years in Pakistan under Army's protection ………. Pakistan a victim ………. LOL …………???!!!
Yura
What nonsense, again, instead of talking about the issues I wrote in my post point-by-point you just posted another anger tantrum. If you think Kashmir is a non-issue then obviously you have never ventured outside the Times of India and the like. About 1971, all of what you say happened AFTER India launched an unprovoked invasion of Pakistan and split that country in half, are you telling me that India took no part in that event?
And you should know that India already committed material breach of the Shimla Accords in 1984 by invading and occupying the Siachen glacier (another unprovoked Indian attack) and holding it ever since. India has a history of violating agreements that she signs whenever it suits her.
And by the way, what made you call me a Paki? Are you aware that it's very much possible to post something from Pakistan's perspective without being a Pakistani? What if I told you that I'm NOT a Pakistani and have no personal connection to that country? You would be well-advised to argue with the points I have made instead of arguing with my nationality (whichever you think that may be).
Al
Bin Laden was never shown on TV his picture was not shown and somehow they just buried him without further ado claiming religious sensitivities yet showed Saddam Husseins sons when they were killed this should show Bib Laden may not even been killed and if so why the secrecy? I am not a Pakistani and an intelligent reply is more appreciate than being a puppy
Vishnu Setlur
Comparing US-Korea relations with US-PAK fiasco is fundamentally flawed. S Korea is neither harboring nor promoting terrorists like Pakistan is. US-KR friction is more trade based with occasional flare up's due to the actions of some US military personnel which is justifiable. We need to remind the South Koreans of our sacrifices when DPKR was literally mowing down the south during the Korean war!!! if not for the US, Seoul would be another Pyongyang and there would be no "Gangnam Style" but only the dear leader Kim's "Hunger style"!!
PeterDownUnder
Koreans tend to or are attempting to glorify their past. A Korean saying goes "The frog doesn't remember the time it was a tadpole".
There is rising anti-american and anti-japanese sentiment growing in SK ever since it became democratic and especially under the previous two liberal regimes. The liberals resorted to populism and nationalism to garner support pointing all their woes to Japan and America. Everything bad can be attributed to Japanese colonisation and American meddling and hegemony, they said.
Frankly, if it wasn't for the Americans SK might still be speaking Japanese, or at least a communist paradise like the North. Conservatives in SK are labelled Fascists and Pro-Japanese whilst the Liberals are labelled Pro-Communist, Pro-North. Frankly once again if you had to choose between the two, obviously the former should be chosen.
Be Way
A Samaritan once to the South Korea doesn't mean the latter must always be held captive to the American hegemony Imperialist. The era of Cold War should be over by now but however due the mentality of the Americans who are still stuck in the past, America will continue its belligerent behavior, of creating more tensions and conflicts via its latest provocative action of Asia pivot. It's time South Korea needs to think beyond the current paradigm that might and brute force is right as being preached by America. With the new elected President swearing in soon, South Korean themselves should take the opportunity the negotiate with their brothers in North Korea for a peaceful settlement and unification. Anything less will only invite unnecessary casualties to the Koreans themselves in future. Until the day Americans are kicked out of the Korean Peninsula, there will never be peace for the Koreans as well as for the Asians as a whole.
Yura
@Vishnu Setlur: The United States and its Afghan vassal are sponsoring terrorists against Pakistan from out of Afghanistan, all the terrorists that have devastated Pakistan use American weapons that kept mysteriously disappearing from NATO arms depots and they operate out of bases and training camps on Afghan territory where they are completely undisturbed by Afghanistan and the US/NATO forces. Even American military and intelligence officials have admitted Afghanistan's government is sponsoring the Pakistani Taliban. On the other hand, the United States has never proven any of its allegations against Pakistan, they are just perpetuated in the media.
Also, until the end of the 1980s South Korea was a mirror image of North Korea, complete with gulags, dictators and the Cheju, Daejeon and Kwangju massacres, with the full blessing of Washington. South Korea was able to democratize only when external threats to its security disappeared: The USSR and China normalized relations with South Korea, the USSR collapsed and North Korea lost the protection of the Soviet nuclear umbrella, and North Korea's economic situation deteriorated to abysmal levels. If those developments had not taken place, South Korea to this day would have remained a repressive police state.
Anjaan
@ Yura,
This is what Pakistan, the state sponsor of terrorism, has deserved always ………. "state sponsored terrorism" is not a one way traffic ………. Pakistan will learn only through swallowing its own medicine ……… !!!
Yura
Right, so instead of addressing the two long paragraphs I posted you just posted a brief rant and walked away. What you have posted is more suited for a late night housewives' meeting at a coffee table, not an online forum meant for serious discussion of the issues so you will have to take your outburst somewhere else.
Zabardasst
Oh yeah 26/11, go ask your newly found friend America to stop us.