Although sharing many of the same problems as Arab societies, the Arab Spring never arrived in Beijing. Why?
It has now been two years since the self-immolation of the Tunisian street vendor, Mohamed Bouazizi, provided the spark that set the Arab world aflame. A wave of protests spread throughout the region in quick succession and led to the overthrow of long ruling autocrats in Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Libya, and possibly Syria.
The collapse of regimes like Hosni Mubarak’s in Egypt, which many considered “an exemplar of…durable authoritarianism” was a salient reminder to many that such revolutions are “inherently unpredictable.” Before long some began to speculate that the protest movements might spread to authoritarian states outside the Arab world, including China. Indeed, the Chinese government was among those that feared the unrest would spread to China because, as one observer noted, China faced the same kind of “social and political tensions caused by rising inequality, injustice, and corruption” that plagued much of the Arab world on the eve of the uprisings.
Alas it was not to be as the Chinese government has proven far more durable than many of its counterparts in the Arab world. This inevitably raises the question of what factors differentiated the Chinese government from its Arab counterparts in places like Egypt?
Fortunately,in the more than two years since Mubarak fell, a number of theories have been advanced to explain the Arab Spring.
One set of explanations has centered on social and economic drivers. According to this reasoning, unrest in the region was driven by a highly discontented and mobilized society. Youth unemployment and official corruption enraged citizens throughout much of the Arab world and the diffusion of new communications technologies, particularly social media sites such as Facebook and Twitter, enabled these individuals to channel these grievances into effective anti-regime collective action.
One shortcoming of this explanation is that the same sources of discontent and social media websites are available throughout the developing world, but successful revolutions are rare. In China, for example, official statistics suggest youth unemployment is low, but independent research has found that the problem may be large and growing, particularly among the type of young, urban and highly educated groups who have spearheaded many revolutions historically. Meanwhile, cross-national measures of corruption place China squarely between Tunisia and Egypt. Finally, Internet penetration rates also place China shoulder-to-shoulder with Tunisia and Egypt, and social media has increasingly appeared as a critical tool for mobilizing Chinese protestors in frequent “mass incidents,” and spreading news of sensitive topics, such as official corruption and public health threats posed by environmental pollution.
Photo Credit: Flickr (Keith Roper)
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Voluble
There wasn't an Arab Spring. They just shuffled dictators and exchanged an old, busted secular tyranny for a shiny, new religious one. The US blew the chance to try to influence them towards a more decent sort of government that acknowledges the rights of the individual. We were too busy leading from behind and crushing freedom in our own country. China has kept the same tyrants they have always had. I am not sure who got the better end of that bargain. I tend to think that these are dark times everywhere in the world. It used to be that you could at least flee to the US when things got too bad but now that last redoubt has fallen to the statists.
China opened up its economic system and the people have benefitted greatly from the freedom they gained. The next step will be political and personal freedom. The Soviets did it backwards so they didn't have increased earnings to put off the day of reckoning. The Chinese are being allowed to enjoy the fruits of their own labor for the first time in since the Communists took over. That will mollify them for a time. But eventually they will either have to be set free or crushed underfoot as the government reasserts control. Most likely the government will look outwards and stir up trouble to try to focus everyone on an external enemy… even if they have to make enemies to do it.
And round and round we go…
VQG
Well there was Tiananmen Square protest back in 1989. However China as a nation was much more closed back then there was not Internet so the protesters were mercilessly crushed by the Pepole Liberation Army's tanks. Even today most of the Chinese people are still fearful of the CCP's iron-fist rule so they continue to bow their heads to make a living, to take care of their stomachs.
As long as the CCP continues to deliver economic growth, there will be no Chinese Spring; only Chinese Smog.
Bill French
What is wrong with you people? You're bickering back and forth about USA/West v China as if there is a zero-sum relationships between which society has a great history and has made contributions to humanity. This is crazy. By fostering such a shallow, misguided view on history and the shared responsibility for a successfull future, you do yourselves a major disservice. Jeez
Andrew K P Leung
Apart from the reasons cited by the author, there is no Chinese copying the Arab Spring because -
(d) Most Chinese people remain thankful that the country has succeeded in liberation from foreign domination and lifted hundreds of millions of from poverty. For the first time in centuries, the Chinese people are walking tall in the world.
(a) According successve PEW public opinion surveys, the majoority of the population remain satisfied with the way the country is heading, notwithstanding rising levels of isolated social discontent with corrupiton and inequality. Over 70% think that they are better-off compared with their parents' generation.
(b) Despite power abuses, China's society is much more inclusive than Arabian countries. There is more upward economic movement of individuals and women are treated more equally in China.
(c) China's economy and society are much better managed compared with Arabian countries.
(d) Compared with Arab countries the Comminist Party has proved more responsive to public demands. Officials are increasingly made politically accountable for failings under their watch.
(e) Over a century's social, eoconomic and political turmoil have fostered a national mindset aganst upheaval.
Best regards,
Andrew
http://www.andrewleunginternationalconsultants.com
andy balle
completely agreed!
Dante D’Anthony
Holy smokes, someone that actually knows something. Thank you!!
kangjien
it is partly due to the family planning ( one child policy), there is not many disaffected youth in china as compared with the Arab states, Tunisian and Egyptian have large number of struggling youth and because of weak economy, there is not much employment oppertunity, so they are desperate and angry
neutral
It could be the simple fact that the Arab Spring did not improve the countries, unless you consider rising disorder and shrinking economies a success, even the most committed democrat in China would want their country to undergo the chaos that the Arab Spring created.
Be Way
Why not change the topic to " U.S Spring is just around the corner".
Irrespectively of whether it's Republican or Democrat that won the U.S election, its President is still a lame duck or puppet that doesn't contribute to the well being of the common American people. America is ruled behind by the military industrial complex in conspiracy with Wall Street fraudsters and greedy MNCs. The 1% rich Americans will get richer and the 99% is destined or going to fall down the ladder to the lives of poverty, unemployment and homeless. Endless brutal war in foreign lands has bankrupted America, more gun violence, insurmountable debts, import exceeding export more times over, quarrelsome and aimless politicians…etc…. It's time to pivot back to America itself before it crumbles to abyss
Free Thinker
America has problems. But it is still a free market democracy.
Anyone can be elected to public office. Anyone can protest, critiscise, start their own newspaper or radio station,etc and say what they like. Anyone can start their own business and get rich. Innovations are praised and protected, rather then stifled and stolen.
Not so in China. Try again, without the brainwashed Communist lies, please.
Voyager
I'll also point out that the US is also intensly decentralised, with the majority of government functions taking place at the state and city level. The majority of the US budget, on the order of 60% is direct payments to individuals, Medicare, Social Security, and the rest of the welfare state. Another 20% is the US armed forces, and 6% on interest payment. Only about 17% of the Federal budget, about 615B USD is actually spent on any sort of governing functions.
Unless you're being invaded, or sued, you really aren't going ot see much of the Federal Government in your life.
Harry
Anyone can be elected to public office? You cannot be an American. In America only those with access to funds and the various private interest lobby organizations have any chance to contest any public office. And once elected you are beholden to them, not to the voters. Just look at the members of Congress and the Senate and how they voted and you will begin to understand.
Be Way
@Free Thinker,
Does it matter whether Americans are privileged to vote freely in a free democratic country or not but what counts is that does the 99% of the Americans have a real say in how the country conducted itself both in its internal or foreign affairs.
If 4% of the Americans who are NRA members, can effectively block the legislation of Gun control as demanded by the other 96% of the Americans, it's a sorry state of U.S democracy whereby the minority prevailed over the majority.
If an average percentage of 78% or more of the Americans opposed the country intervention in more foreign wars, the reverse is even more clearer that America has never for a moment, disengaged itself of creating and embroiling itself into more brutal wars. It's latest hostility of pivoting towards Asia is going to cause the total destruction of the world eventually.
Clearly the reason we have seen the US starting so many wars is that the US is and has not for a very long time been anything approaching a democracy
Democracy in the US is a purely formalistic thing. People get to vote once every four years to chose from a narrow list of pre-selected candidates approved by the real rulers of the country, who are the wealthy owners of the large business interests, many of which prosper when there’s a war on, and many more of which are happy to have periodic wars, or the threat of wars, to keep people in line and willing to tolerate the kind of abuse that is typically heaped on the average working person: financially starved school districts, starvation-level welfare grants, no public health system, rusting bridges, pot-holed roads, almost no public transit, and falling real wages, etc.
As founding father of America, James Madison once said:
Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds are added to those of subduing the force of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes and the opportunities of fraud growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could reserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.
Aubrey Kohn
> America has problems. But it is still a free market democracy.
Umm, no. America is more socialist than China is, these days (compare tax rates!), and the market is much freer in China, in some ways, less so in others. Neither has an obvious overwhelming advantage in economic freedom.
> Anyone can be elected to public office.
This is not much more true of America than of China. Since they are largely indistinguishable, once their theatrical garb is removed, let's consider the GOP/DFL as one party. Now the similarities become more obvious, don't they?
> Anyone can protest, critiscise,
As long as you aren't deemed a terrorist for speaking outside of a fenced in "free-speech zone", or for having unpopular truths to speak.
> start their own newspaper or radio station,etc
Not so much. 5 international corporations control 90% of the airwaves.
> and say what they like.
Not so much. You can say what you like inside a darkened room, but the corporate gatekeepers will prevent you from exposing the true crimes of governments in a politically useful manner.
> Anyone can start their own business and get rich.
True roughly equally in both places. I think it's easier in China, because there are green fields yet, but I don't have any practical experience, and I understand there are roadblocks to competing with party cronies and SOEs which are different from the roadblocks faced in the U.S., but very similar in their structure.
> Innovations are praised and protected, rather then stifled and stolen.
As an engineer, inventor, and content creator, I can assure you that the U.S. IP regime is stifling invention. Like most of the "rule of law" in the U.S. it is only available to wealthy vested interests.
> and stealing
Raping the commons is a global sport.
> Not so in China. Try again, without the brainwashed Communist lies, please.
Deluded by ideology.
American Patriot
@ Be Way
Have you ever bothered to do some research on American history? America is the most resilient nation in the history of the planet, its rise to global power unprecedented in modern history. We have survived and won the two largest wars that humanity has ever fought, WW1 and WW2. We have survived the deepest economic recession in the history of capitalism, the great depression. We have survived a bloody civil war where our country was literally ripped into two pieces.
Yet here you are, going on mindlessly about a little blip in America's economy, a little recession that has caused our economy to shrink a few basis points in the course of a single year (2009). Please, at least educate yourself on the history of America before going off on ignorant rants, it just sinks your credibility ever further down the hole.
David
The recession of late 2007 was the worst recession the United States has ever faced since the Great Depression. It was NOT a little recession. I do agree that the United States is a resilient country.
Bankotsu
"America has problems. But it is still a free market democracy."
"The idea of "market-based price" is itself a fiction. A market is man-made. The market in Switzerland or Denmark or Japan is different from the market in Cuba or Cameroon."
http://www.serendipity.li/hr/imf_and_dollar_system.htm
Bankotsu
"In the Middle-East you saw tremendous backlash against a ruling elite that represents in the locals' eyes as foreign influence and domination."
You are correct. One major reason was that the Tunisian and Egyptian regimes were seen as western stooge regimes. That generated even more hatred towards those regimes on top of the economic problems.
This basic truth is extremely difficult for westerners to grasp or accept. This truth is so basic that it is understood by post-colonial societies without any explicit mentioning of it. But for americans or europeans, most of them cannot grasp or understand it. That is the reason for all the failed policies and imperialist wars like Vietnam.
Derek
In the Middle-East you saw tremendous backlash against a ruling elite that represents in the locals' eyes as foreign influence and domination. On top of the economic troubles and repressive governments, such a violent reaction is not unexpected.
I would argue that the comparison with present-day China is not accurate, indeed, the Arab Spring has more striking similarities with the Boxer Rebellion in China or even the 1848 Liberal Revolutions. A nationalistic awakening for the masses rising up against the status quo.
But it is more similar to the Boxer Rebellion because many of the participants in the uprisings in the Middle-East seeked to remove the legacy of their dictators, which of course includes the history of Western nations financially and militarily supporting such despots for 'stability'.
You get the populist parties that represent conservative religious values gaining power such as the Muslim Brotherhood. This represents a reactionary backlash against foreign interference as well as the intention of such parties seeking to exploit the situtation.
In China, there is no such reactionary backlash because of the existing perception that China is improving the lives of its citizens and any ills in society is not the result of foreign opression or interference but is perceived as an internal problem that can be solved without the need to overthrow the government. This would be the view of the majority, and combined with the pro-active attempts of the CCP to defuse such tensions before they arise, it is not suprising at all China would fare much better.
TMLutas
Another dissimilarity is that the arab world was shocked at the self-immolation and moved to action. In China, self-immolation is old hat. The number of protests was growing for several years, including violent protests as recorded in China's official statistics. Such statistics are no longer made public.
AAA
Why the west so constantly concern about China in such a faw way? What has China done in 30 years is equal to western effort of 300 years. There is no parellel to draw between Arab springs or whatsoever happened in Middle East, in fact any other country. China is China though not perfect China still is a civilsation state with a long history of world power. China is going strong for a long time to come. There are always dissidents and there are always problems in any country but the western powers and culture had been based on enslaving others, full expliotations, divide and rule, violent, massive destructions, unnecesary killings,colonialism and imperialism all are coming to an end as the whole system has been declining and collapsing. This is just because China does what China does best despite all the undue interferences from the colonial and imperial past, China still standing tall. China`s success could just lead to the decline of western powers indirectly even without China`s active and direct interferecne of western power systems and internal affairs.
plato
are you chinese by any chance?
a_canadian_observer
@plato: Of course he/she is. And his/her comment is exactly one of the lines that has been indoctrinated on the chinese since their birth.
John Chan
@plato,
Why does it matter? He is telling the truth isn’t it? Even for their own survival, shouldn’t the West take a deep breath and realize what they are in the eyes of the non-Western people?
China Diaspora
As a china diaspora, i really happy with china today progress. But for now , at the current level of economy development, It need to loosen the state control in economy and social media. If Beijing still use its current strategy, i afraid it could not become a develop country in the near future. What happen with China have a high influence on us. Hope it could keep its high economy growth.
Jean-Paul
Oh no, looks like we have another brainwashed uneducated Chinese going on about China's self-proclaimed "ancient history" LOL.
Here let me educate you on some ancient history; China has never been, and will never be a true world power. The best that China has ever achieved was the status of regional power, which was limited to eastern Asia. It did not have any influence on the following areas: The America's, Europe, Africa, the Middle East, Australia, South Asia, and North Asia.
The most that China ever ruled or influenced was korea, tibet, inner mongolia, japan, taiwan, xinjiang and from time to time vietnam and other parts of indochina which is a tiny fraction of the entire world. China did not even have the technology to reach australia until modern times, and India had the largest economy for most of known history. what a pathetic and sad ancient history china has, so weak!!
John Chan
@Jean-Paul,
Where do you live, in a cave? The American is obsess with China, from White House to mainstream media is all about China, it seems they can’t leave China alone. On the other hand, one hardly ever has heard anything about France in the USA, is France feeling unwanted and jealous about China’s influence?
If China has no influence, you won’t be trolling garbage against China here too. You are here trolling against China proves either you say what you don’t mean or you are craving for China’s attention.
John Chan
@China Diaspora,
You need to learn what the West said, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it;” and “don’t reinvent the wheel, when it is working.”
deejer1
Yeah; and a loyal CCP member, perhaps.
para82
@Jean Paul.: You really need a good history lesson. From at least the 5th century BC to the end of the 18th century, China had been much more technologically advanced and far richer than Europe. China invented cast iron in about the 6 century BC. That means China had the technology to melt iron ore ,on the other hand Europe didn't have the technology to melt iron ore until the late 14th century. Unbelievably the lag time is almost 2000 years!!!! That's how much backward Europe was vis a vis China. According to Joseph Needham who wrote SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION IN CHINA and also Robert Temple who wrote THE GENIUS OF CHINA, China was far ahead of the Greco-Roman civilization in technology and this Chinese technological advantage over Europe lasted until the end of the 18th century. China fell behind because it missed out on the Industrial Revolution. China invented paper, compass, printing(including movable type about 400 years before Gutenberg), mechanical clock, blast furnace, coaking coal, Bessemer Steel Process, Siemen's Steel process, leeboard, watertight compartment for ships (in the 2nd century, the backward Europeans did not adopt it until the 19th century), stern-mounted rudder, multi-masted ship, NOT ONLY gunpowder BUT ALSO cannon, gun, bomb, mine(both land and sea), hand grenade, rocket including multi-stage one. These are just very few Chinese inventions that greatly influenced the later European ground-breaking events as the SPREAD of Ranaissance, great voyages of discovery, gunpowder-based weapons revolution, industrial revolution. All these European events would have been impossible without the Chinese inventions. As a matter of fact, the Ming China was the first gunpowder weapons state in the world. Can you imagine the modern armies without the Chinese military inventions?
Da Vinci
@Para82
You are embelishing and misleading. By using your criteria, then Loenardo Da Vinci, by himself, invented more than the entire nation of China.
para82
@Da Vinci: I'm going to call your stupid bluff. Ok, you prove to me that your buddy Leonardo Da Vinci invented by himself more than the entire nation of China.
Jean-Paul
@ para
The sources you have used, especially robert temple's book are inherently flawed because they assume that Chinese technology had spread across the globe and was not developed indigenously by the Europeans. In fact China had almost zero contact with Western Europe for much of known history so it is highly unlikely that many of those Chinese inventions were responsible for the similar developments of European tech as well.
One example taken directly from Temple's book is this: Temple (on pg. 55) tells us rather quickly that the Chinese were using water power to operate blast furnace bellows by AD 31 — which was a significant achievement worthy of note. The problem is that he then claims that European metallurgical use of water power did not come until the 12th century, when water powered hammer forges. Finally he jumps to the conclusion that the innovation traveled from China to Europe and was a major factor in the European Industrial Revolution. He doesn't even provide evidence to show that the Chinese influenced European tech!!!! So how can you claim that China actually helped cause the European industrial and scientific revolutions without any solid evidence?
Another major problem with temple's book is that he simply has his facts altogether wrong with respect to Europe. Water power (for agricultural uses) dates probably to the 2nd or 3rd century BC in Europe. By the 1st century AD it was being used in mining and metallurgy, and by the 2nd century widely so. Thus water power appeared at least as early in Europe as in China, and perhaps a good deal earlier. Moreover, it was used far more widely for agricultural purposes, where Chinese techniques remained resolutely manpower-intensive up until very recently.
Please at least use credible sources when arguing your point, Romans and Greeks were easily just as advanced as anything China had, if you want I can start listing technological developments that the Romans had before the Chinese to prove that China's history is nothing special at all!!!
para82
@Jean-Paul: I'm going to quote from p.127 of John M.Hobson's THE EASTERN ORIGINS OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION. "But it seems that mills were first developed in Ancient Egypt and spread to the Roman Empire later—– even if these were not water mills". "The first water mills(the decisive innovation) emerged in China the 1st century BC:". "This is sometimes circumvented(by Eurocentrists) by asserting that it was the Roman mill that influenced the later European mill, given that the Romans, unlike the Chinese,used vertical wheels that formed the basis of the later medieval watermills". "But the Chinese influence was revealed by the fact that the medieval water-mill was CRITICALLY dependent upon the "trip hamer". "And this had been clearly invented in China in the 4th century BC". In the ancient times the use of water-mills were widespread in China for both agriculture and injecting continuous air flow into the the blast furnace by connecting the very efficeient double-action poston bellows to the water-mills. Europe didn't adopt the double-action piston bellows until the 18th century. Until then Europe used very inefficient single-action piston bellows.
Kim’s Uncle
@ para82, jean Paul has a point. I think it is you who is in denial! When you get in a car, train, or plane? Where you think came from who developed it? When you go home and turn on the light who developed that? The power source and conduction of electricity, who developed that??? When a chinaman looks into a microscope to explore the microscopic world who developed that? The discovery of DNA who developed that? Discovery of modern medicine and the development anti biotics which increased life span who developed that? The discovery of the atom who developed that?
What about commerce? Who developed the double entry accounting principles which all modern businesses record financial data through accrual accounting who developed that? Development of time value of money? Development of joint stock company? Stock markets, stocks, bonds , financial instruments, insurance???
There most respected thinkers of the world throughout history who are they? Newton, Einstein, Galileo, Copernicus, da Vinci, Darwin, Aristotle, Leibniz, Fleming, Heisenberg, Fermi, ………….etc. not one Chinese!
In conclusion, without the invention of plane, train, automobile, computers, electricity, medicine, etc. everything that makes the modern world where would china be??? That’s right a country power by water buffalo, communicating by smoke signal, stuck on the ground, stuck in china, existing at subsistence level never to know what electricity is! Pretty much what china has existed as for 1000s of years!
Can you even name one Chinese “scientist” as respected as Thomas Edison or Nicolas tesla?
Open an advanced mathematics or physics book, can you name one thing like an equation, law, or theorem name for a Chinese? Letters, symbols and numbers used to describe the language of mathematics are they a Chinese invention??? At least the Arabs can take credit for our number system! Shall I go on or the Chinese ego is so fragile that we will start to hear more crying? Only Chinese think their civilization is remarkable. I just think it is backward and superstitious!
If you want to play some more I can write more numerous examples of western science and knowledge that have benefited mankind!
para82
@ Jean- Paul, Kim's Uncle: There is nothing original about the European civilization. The ancient Greek civilization is not one of the ORIGINAL civilizations such as Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Indus Valley, Chinese. The reason why the Greek civilization is not one of the ORIGINAL civilizations is because it was an offshoot of the Egyptian civilization and heavily influened by the Babylonian civilization. The Greeks were the biggest copycats of the ancient world. The ancient Greeks copied math, astronomy, medicine, from Egyptians and Babylonians. The Greeks had very primitive number systems based on their alphabet, this is the reason why the ancient Greeks couldn't develope algebra until the 3rd century in the Roman times. The Greeks didn't even have the concept of zero. On the other hand, the ancient Chinese developed the decimal system, a place for zero, negative numbers, decimal fractions, using algebra in geometry, sophiscated rod-number system which some scholars think is the percurssor of the Arabic ( Hindi) Numerals. The ancient Greeks lacked all these mathmatical knowledges. Basically the Greeks did a lousy job of copying the Egyptian and Babylonian mathmatics. The Greek Alphabet is based on the Phoencian Alphabet. The Phoenicians are NON-European Semitic people of the Middle East. How about the Europen reliigon, Christianity which is also an offshoot of the Judaism which is from NON-European Semtic Jews of the Midle East. One can see the ancient Europeans were the biggest copycats lacking creativity and originality. In strict sense, there was no science in the ancient world. The science or modern science was born in the Islamic civilization in the 11th century with the birth of the experimental scientific method. This is the reason why Ibn al Haytham is sometimes called the first scientist in the human history. Without the experimental scientific method pioneered by the Islamic scientists, there would have been no moderm science or science. As usual, the Europeans copied the experimental scientific method from the Islamic scholars. There would have been no Roger Bacon, Coperncus, Newton, Francis Bacon without learning from the works of the pioneering Islamic scientists who initiated the experimental scientific method. Also in agricutural technology China was light years ahead of Europe from the ancient times to the end of the 18th century. For example, China invented an advanced form of iron plough whch Europe couldn't match until the 17th century, row cultivation of crops and hoeing was invented in the 6th century BC but It wasn't available in Europe until the 18th century, China also invented in the 3rd century BC efficient horse collar harness that did not choke the poor animal,Europe didn't adopt the collar until the 8th century. China invented cast iron in the 6th century BC, but Europeans only got the technolgy to melt iron ore to make cast iron in the late 14th century. The lag time is almost 2000 years !!!! According to SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION by Joseph Needham, in such other technologies as metallurgy, shipbuilding, ceramics, textile, printing, civil engineering , mining and deep driling and many more. China was ahead of Europe until the end of the 18th century. A lot of these Chinese inventions were diffused to Europe by many invading Asian normads and Arabs in ancient and medieval times, specially under the Mongol dominattion of the large part of Eurasia during the Middle Ages. There was a lot of intercourse between China and Europe during this time period. Marco Polo is a good example. According to John M. Hobson,a noted economic historian from the 16th century on, the Jesuits who stationed in China transfered a lot of advanced Chinese technologies to Europe. Also European diplomats, sailors coming to China did their share of transfering Chinese technologies to Europe. John M. Hobson who wrote THE EASTERN ORIGINS OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION also stated that Italians were wrongly accredited with inventing COMENDA, contactual agreement in which an investor financed a merchant trip, but it had been invented in the Middle East . Also again Italians are wrongly given credit for discovery of other financial institutions such as the bill of exchange,credt institutions,insurance and banking. For the fact is all these institutions had been invented in the Islamic or pre-Islamic Middle East. Again according to John M.Hobson, the backward Italians got all these financial systems from the Middle East while doing bussiness with the Moslems during the Middle Ages. As for double entry method, various advanced book-keepnig systems which were just as efficient as the double entry method were used in the Middle East, India, specially in China. I'll quote John M. Hobson again " virtually all the major innovations that lay behind the development of Italian capitalism were drived from the MORE ADVANCED EAST, specially the Middle East and China,diffused across the Islamic bridge". It looks like as usual, Europeans were LARGELY copiers rather than original thinkers before the Industrial Revolution.
para82
@Kim's Uncle: Even if I'm not Chinese, I don't appreciate your using the racial slur"chinaman". For your information, I'm second to none when it comes to cussing. So DO NOT tempt me,BOY.
para82
@Kim's Uncle: I'll show you some scientific and mathmatic theories which the ancient and medieval Chinese invented or developed long before Europeans. According to Joseph Needham, a very reknownd sinologist and biochemist, China invented the decimal system in the 14th century BC about 2300 years before Europe.. and had developed negative numbers the 2nd century BC about 1700 years before Europeans used, decimal fractions in the 1st century BC about 1600 years before Europe, using algebra in geometry in the 3rd century about 1000 years before Europe, PASCAL'S TRIANGLE in the 12 century exactly 427 years before Pascal. Also according to Dr. Frank Swetz, a former mathmatics professor at Penn State who wrote THE EVOLUTION OF MATHMATICS IN ANCIENT CHINA, Chinese mathmaticians discovered the PYTHAGOREAN THEOREM in the 10th century BC about 400 years before Pythagoras. Again according too Joseph Needham, Mozi in China in the 5th century BC discovered the principles behind CAMERA OSCURA about 100 years before Greeks. Mozi also discovered the FIRST law of motion in the 4th century BC about 2000 years before NEWTON, recognition of sun spots as solar phenomena in the 4th century BC, about 2000 years before Europe, forensic medicine in the 13h century about 300 years before Europe, circulation of blood in the 2nd centry BC about 1800 years before William Harvey, circadian rhythms in the human body in the 2nd century BC about 2150 years before Europe, the science of endocrinology in the 2nd century BC about 2100 years before Europe, diabetes discovered by urine analysis in the 7th century about 1000 years before Europe, IMMUNOLOGY-INOCULATION in the 10 th century about 800 years before Europe, magnetic declination of the Earth's magnetic field the 9th century about 600 years before Europe, magnetic remanance and induction in the 11th century about 600 years before Europe, equal temprement in music in 1584 about 50 years before Europe, use of oil and natural gas as fuel and lighting material in the 4th century BC about 2100 years before Europe, A lot of these Chinese discoveries are ground-breaking ones. Many of these Chinese inventions and discoveries were diffused worldwide to benefit mankind immensely. Adam Smith in 1776 in WEALTH OF NATIONS said China was richer and technologically more advanced than Europe. Also Francis Bacon in the 17th century stated that up to that moment the most important inventions in the human history were gunpowder, compass,printing, all these inventions were Chinese. According to Angus Maddison, a noted economic historian, the two richest regions in the world from at least 1st century to the end of the 18th century were China and Indian sub-continent. Also according to such economic historians as Paul Bairoch, Andre Gunder Frank, John M. Hobson, both China's GDP and per capita income were higher than those of Europe at the end of the 18th century. From the 16th century to the end of the 18th century, about 40% of all the silver mined in the Americas by Europeans ended up in China beause Europe had nothing else but silver to sell to China to pay for it's huge imports of Chinese silk, porcelain, processed tea. At the end of the 18th century, China produced about 34% of the world's GDP. China also manufactured excellent mechanical clock and cannon which were just as good as European ones. So Europe had nothing to sell to China except silver from the Americas. As I said before, China fell behind Europe because it missed out on the Industrial Revolution. I'm not denying the fantastic scientific and technological advances made by Europe and America over the last 200 years. The whole humanity bebefited grately from this Western achievement. The way things are going now, there is a good chance for China to become a technological and economic superpower again by the middle of this century. No country can stay at the top all the time. A country's fortune waxes and wanes.
ACT
@para82
any perusal of the references listed by wikipedia will reveal, in fact, that China and Europe developed iron-working at around the same time, and not only this, but that the Roman Empire had fourteen times the iron output of the Han Dynasty at the same time, when both had similar populations. see:
Riederer, Josef; Wartke, Ralf-B.: "Iron", Cancik, Hubert; Schneider, Helmuth (eds.): Brill's New Pauly, Brill 2009
Craddock, Paul T. (2008): "Mining and Metallurgy", in: Oleson, John Peter (ed.): The Oxford Handbook of Engineering and Technology in the Classical World, Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0-19-518731-1, p. 108
Wagner, Donald B.: "The State and the Iron Industry in Han China", NIAS Publishing, Copenhagen 2001, ISBN 87-87062-77-1, p. 73
All technologies are transferred by trade; the Ottomans got their cannons from technology traded via the silk road, and so on, and so forth. Whereas imperial China and the Islamic Caliphate were responsible for the development of many crucial technologies, the west has been responsible for many of the inventions we now rely upon from the 16th century onwards. Of course, blinded by a Europhobic rant as you were, you failed to remember this. Each and every civilization has its turn, but this is not licence to make the claims and to the things that the PRC is now doing by effectively making the argument that because China was once the ruler of "all under heaven" it should be so once again.
para82
@ACT: The Wikipedia numberis you mentioned were based on the figures from a book titled, IRON FOR THE EAGLES by David Sim and Isabela Ridge. They admitted all their numbers were ESTIMATES. They GUESSED the amount of the iron production in Weald in South East England which was one of largest iron producing areas in the Roman Empire, projected it to the rest of the empire. The problem is the iron production ESTIMATES for Weald varies from 250 tons to 800 tons a year from so-called expert to expert. In reality nobody knows exactly how much iron was produced throughout the Roman Empire due to lack of reliable data. The same is very true with the iron production numbers in the Han Dynasty. there were no reliable official records on the iron production. The Roman Empire was far behind Han China in metallurgical technology because the Romans didn't have the ability to MELT iron ore to make cast iron. Europeans acquired the technology to melt iron ore to make cast iron only in the late 14th century. On the other hand Chinese acquired the technology to melt iron ore to make cast iron in about the 6th century BC. as you can see the lag time is almost 2000 years. The Romans used bloomery smelting technique that means since they couldn't melt iron ore, they just heat iron ore and then started hammering to make wrought iron and inferior steel in small quantities and it was very time- consuming so that Romans could not achieve economies of scale. On the other hand Han Chinese used blast furnace to melt iron ore to make cast iron. Han Chinese must have produced massive amounts of cast iron and superior steel becuse unlike the Romans, the Han Chinese had the technology to melt iron ore. Donald Wagner said in the absense of reliable data on iron production, we must go with the quality of the iron manufacturing technology. Considering the huge iron producing technological superiority the Han China had over the Roman Empire, any reasonable person will decide that the Han China must have produced a lot more iron than the Roman Empire.
Kim’s Uncle
@ angry Chinaman, oops, I mean para,
Why are you keep citing Joseph Needham book?? Is that the only source you have? Btw, why can't a Chinese writer/scholar chronologue Chinese achievements? Why does it have to be a white scholar who has documented China's achievements? :) And why are we communicating in English, a white language? And using the internet invented by "white" Americans?
Needham's book is just an opinion. It is not proof of anything. Scholars don't agree to much of anything. You're very impressionable to influenced by a few book you happened to have read. You need to read more widely in order to come into a conclusion.
I see you answered none of my questions like name a single Chinese scientist in all of human history that is at the same level as Einstein or Newton. You have failed to name me one. I just want one but no answer? I think already know the contribution of science is not something China has ever contributed to mankind. Just accept it. Your endless rantings to try to prove that China contributed scientific knowledge of mankind strikes me as desperate. You're not convincing anyone.
Here is my list of scientific breakthroughs.
The Quantum, Hormones, Particle nature of light, Special relatvity, Nucleous of the atom, size of the cosmos, arrangement of atoms in solid matter, Quatum atom, Means of communication between nerves, Uncertainty principles,Chemical bond, Expansion of the universe, Antibiotics, Means of production of energy in living organisms, Nuclear fissions, Movability of genes, Structure of DNA, Structure of proteins, Radio waves and Big Bang, Unified theory of forces, Quarks: tiniest essence of matter, and Creations of altered forms of life…..
Guess what none of these discoveries had anything to do with China or Chinese. Deal with it!
para82
@ Kim's Uncle: This dumb Whitie with serious mental problems is back again for more beating, You haven't come up with any counter arguments to my replies to you. Boy, you are out of your minor league, LOL !!!!!
para82
@Kim's Uncle: You shoud try to read SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION by Joseph Needham, even if it might be a little challenging for you. On the other hand, you might try ReORIENT by Andre Gunder Frank or THE EASTERN ORIGINS OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION by John M. Hobson or THE GENIUS OF CHINA by Robert Temple. All these scholars indicate that Europe was behind China in technology from about the 5th century BC to the end of the 18th century. Speaking of Chinese sceintists, why don't you read about Su Song who invented the greatest mechanical clock of the time, among many other very important things, in the 11th century . Also find about Shen Kuo who invented the magnetic compass in the 11th century. His invention was the greatest step in navigation in the human history.. These Chinese scientists' accomplishments will make those of Galileo or Da Vinci a child's play. If you paid any attention to my replies to you, you would know how backward Europe was compared to China and the Islamic civilization before the Industrial Revolution. There is an Aug 26. 2007 BOSTON GLOBE article titled A NATION OF OUTLAWS , A CENTURY AGO, THAT WASN'T CHINA—IT WAS US. According to this article, America stole and copied other countries' inventions and ideas without regard to patent,copyright, trademark in the 19th and early 20th centuries. I think China had a good teacher in America, LOL !!! As a matter of fact, America was the biggest copycat in the world at the time just as the ancient Greece and other European countries were before the Industrial Revoluton. Try to read the right materials to broaden your horizon instead of spewing out a lot of white supremacy nonsense.
para82
@Kim's Uncle: For your information, I'm American. I'm a former 82nd Airborne paratrooper who served America honorably. Instead of repeating your tired and old white supremacy b.s. try to remember that without all the Chinese technologies that I mentioned in my previous comments, the European SPREAD OF Renaissance, European voyages of discovery, European gunpowder weapons revolution, European Industrial Revolution would have been impossible. Also without the contributions from the Islamic civilization , the European Renaissance and sceintific revolution would have been impossible. Contrary to what you think, even the Enlightment was heavily influenced by China. I'm going to quote from THE EASTERN ORIGINS OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION by John.M. Hobson: " Many Enlightment thinkers possitively associated with China and it's ideas, including Montaigne,Malebranche,Leibniz, Voltaire,Quesnay, Wolff, Hume and Adam Smith". " Voltaire drew on Chinese conceptions on politics,religion and philosophy – all of which were based on rational principles– in order to attack the European preference for heriditary aristocracy" " Indeed , many of the Enlightment thinkers derived their preference for the "rational method" from China". One of these Chinese ideas was the principle of LAISSEZ-FAIRE. From about the 1st century on, by and large the Chinese government stayed out of the people's economic activities with the possible exception of salt making, iron production(occasionally) and keeping grain resreves for stable prices and kept taxes low. This Chinese economic principle was passed first to Quesnay, and then in turn he passed it to Adam Smith. Another Chinese idea that influenced the Enlightment thinkers was the concept of MANDATE OF HEAVEN which meant people had the right to overthrow the ruler who was not up to the job. This idea was in direct opposition to the European concept of DIVINE RIGHTS OF KINGS that meant a king was a king ,no matter what. So we can safely assume that this Chinese concept of MANDATE OF HEAVEN had some influence on the French Revoluton to say the least. Also another Chinese idea of CIVIL SERVICE EXAMINATION for government officials was introduced at this time. Many Europeans in the Enlightment era developed a strong taste for many things Chinese from tea drinking to Chinese wallpaper to Chinese garden with pagodas, etc. If you read THE EASTERN ORIGINS OF THE WESTERN CIVILIZATION by John M. Hobson, you will find all about these things. The problem with you is you knock such great scholars as Joseph Needham, even though you know nothing about them or read their books. My suggestion to you is get off your stupid white supremacy b.s. and read these books and broaden your knowledge.
Kim’s Uncle
@ para,
"What happend to the "inclusive,open-minded, rational tolerant" Western culture, when " democratic" Amerca had slavery and comitted a near-genocide against the native Americans and until 1964 there was the legal segregation against blacks in the Deep South of so-called democratic America? Your statements are full of contradictions,hypocracies, half-truths".
"ASK Afghans, Pakistanis, and Arabs specially Palestinians, Iraqis, how they feel about America".
The things you listed, yeah, it's part of US history but people and government of the US do not deny that. Those ugly things make all Americans feel shame and remorseful about what happened in the past. But as a democratic country we learned from those mistakes did we not? Condeleeza Rice, Colin Powell, Barack Obama, etc. are they not African Americans that held or hold the highest office in the US? It looks like it is you who need to do some soul searching! Jim Thorpe was one of the greatest American athletes who was of Native American heritage. You need to think of the progress that America has made today. If you still think that America has not changed and has remain static for over 200 years, then you're a fool! Compare to Communist China or North Korea, yeah, it is a hell of a lot more inclusive, tolerant and open minded.
So when you joined the military you raised your right hand and swear an oath to defend the US and its Constitution from foreign and domestic while at the same time think the US is nothing more than a hypocritical racist country? No wonder you play the race card!
Btw, your remarks about Afghans, Iraqis, Pakis, etc…… We are not at war with those people. We are at war with violent jihadis extremists! We went into Afghanistan to overthrow the Taliban who harbored Al Qaeda! The Taliban, you know the people who blew up the 1000 years old Buddha! The people who did not educate girls! Yeah, all the nut job jihadis hate the US but there are good Muslims in Aghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan who are our allies too! Ahmad Shah Massoud was an ally of the US who was assassinated by the Taliban. Iraq is now a functioning democracy with majority rule Shiite, the first time in the history of Iraq. Iraq has a written constitution by Iraqis. And it was a Pakistani doctor who gave us intelligence that led to Osama Bin Laden.
para82
@ Kim's Uncle: That's right, I served in the U.S. military to protect the country and it's constItution so that somebody like you can say whatever he wants. without retaliation. I love America at least as much as you do. What I have issue with you is your nonsensical Eurocentric view that the Western culture is "better" than any other culture. Every culture played it's part in the development of the human civilization pretty much equally. I'm not denying the fact that America has made a tremendous progress in the race relationship over the last 40 years. I hope it gets EVEN better. Now do I sound like a guy who plays a race card? But you should always remember that America USED to be a racially very repressive country. So before bragging about "tolerant" "inclusive" " open-minded" Western culture, we should take a long look at ourselves. I have no problem with having invaded Afghanistan in pursuit of Bin Laden and fight the Al Qaida and Taliban. The problem I have is however neccessary our special operations and drone attacks against the Taliban and other Islamic jihadists are, we also inadvertently end up killing innocent civilians, specially women and children, thus creating more enemies in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Since we killed Bin Laden, we should get out of the country as soon as possible. This is an unwinnable war for eveybody involved. There must be a political solution between the Kabul government and the Taliban. The Iraqi war was unneccessary, because there was no WMD to begin with. By invading Iran under the false pretext, America brougt the immense misery to the country. Also the war unneccessarily cost a lot of American lives and funds . The country in a big mess, because things are run on very brutal and violent sectarian and ethnic lines. So called democracy in Iraq is a big joke. I really hope our country pays more attention to solving it's own problems than get involved too much in foreign affairs. GOD BLESS AMERICA and AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY !!!!!!!!!
para82
@ Kim's Uncle: I meant invading Iraq not Iran.
para82
@Jean Paul: It sounds like you have never heard of Chinese admiral Zhang He. About 80 years before Columbus, he led 7 voyages for 28 years, composed of about 200 gigantic ships and 30000 sailors, soldiers, diplomats, technicians all the way to TANZANIA and KENYA in the EAST AFRICA. According to John M. Hobson, a noted sinologist and economic historian, Zhang He's flag ship was about 30 times bigger than Columbus' flag ship, NINA. Also according to Angus Maddison, a reknowned economic historian, from at least 1st century to the 18th century, the two biggest economies in the world were China and the Indian sub- contient ( this means not only modern -day India but also Pakistan, Bangladesh, there was no such country as India until the 19th century). In the 18th century China produced abbout 34% of the world's GDP and the Indian sub-continent about 25% of the world's total. Adam Smith said in 1776 in WEALTH OF NATIONS China was richer and technologically more advanced than Europe. Such economic historians as Andre Gunder Frank, Paul Bairoch, John M. Hobson said not only China's total GDP but also per capita income were larger than those of Europe in the 18th century. Also about 40% of silver mined in the Americas by the Europeans ended up in China because Europe didn't have anything to sell to China for the silk, porcelain, processed tea,etc it bought from China. As you can see, Europe suffered trade deficits with China even then like the Roman Empire that had loved and imported large amounts of Chinese silk. At this time China was still generally ahead of Euope in technology. China even produced cannon and mechanical clock( these goods denoted very strong European manufacturing points) that were at least as good or powerful as the Euroean ones. The last two hundred year domination of the West in technology and economic wealth is an aberration from the long-running Chinese dominance in technology and ecomiic wealth throughout the world history. As I said before, China fell behind because it missed out on the Industrial Revolution. There is a good chance China will be a superpower AGAIN by the middle of this century.
Jean-Paul
@ Para
Your argument has no structure or coherence, you are just rambling about random facts that are either from misleading, vague sources, or are just purely false. Anyone can list random facts and say that so and so is superior to anything. Stating random "facts" or "statistics" makes you no more than an encyclopedia and does not prove any particular point.
Your assertion that China was the largest economy is false, India has had the largest economy for most of recorded history. Also, China was far behind Europe for centuries in terms of technology. The European renaissance began in the late 1400s in Italy where Leonardo Da Vinci, among other famous philosophers and scientists had made significant breakthroughs in technology that China had never experienced at the time. So for much of known history, China was never the center of the world's economy OR the center of technology. Angus Ma
Here, let me show you how to engage in a proper debate without rambling; to prove my assertion that India, not China was was the largest economy in human history, have a look at the work of Angus Maddison where he accurately calculates the GDP figures of each region. You will see that India is ahead of China for much of the past 2000 years.
Link: http://www.worldeconomics.com/The%20Work%20of%20Angus%20Maddison.details?AID=435
para82
@Jean-paul: I think you are an idiot who has a serious reading comprehension problem. It's obvious you can not argue logically and reasonably. Go back to my previous replies to you and refresh your very short memory, boy. Without the huge contributions of the Islamic civilization, there would have been no European Renaissance, Scientific Revolution, certainly no Da Vinci, Galileo, Newton. That's how backward Europe was compared to China and the Islamic civilization. China went through it's own renaissance a lot earlier than Europe in the 8th century BC – the 3rd century BC. Have you heard of the HUNDRED SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT? And again in the 11th century through the 13th century during the Sung Dynasty. These were the times when such great inventions as navigational compass and movable type were made. According to Maddison, he used the GDP figure of the total sub-Indian continent ( includig not only India but also modern-day Bangladesh and Pakistan) for that of India So actual GDP for so-called India should be a lot smaller. As a matter of fact, there was no such country as India until the 19th century. It was a British Inventiion. Maddison indicated that China and the Indian sub-continent(not India) were the two richest regions in the world from at least 1st century to the 19th century. Also Maddison stated that at the end of 18th century China's GDP was the biggest in the world about 34% of the world's total and 25% for India, the second biggest. My suggestion to you is get off your stupid China-bashing agenda and use your small brain for someting useful, LOL !!!!
ACT
@para82
but China never was a global power; it was, at best, a regional power, one that remained isolated, insular, and arrogant throughout its suzerainty over its neighbors. China was the beneficiary of a system that granted limited political autonomy in exchange for exclusive trading and tribute rights, where failure to provide the recognition of total racial and political supremacy that China "deserved" brought down the full military wrath of the Chinese Empire upon any who failed to acknowledge the centrality of Zhongguo. Just ask Korea and Vietnam to see what they think of that system; each was invaded no less than ten times throughout their mutual histories by various Chinese dynasties looking to establish mercantile and political supremacy. To all indications, the PRC is trying to ressurect that system today in order to replace the existing order that benefits the United States and Western Europe. Thankfully, many of its former vassal states are much the wiser.
Regardless, past dominance is no excuse, no legitimate reason, no morally sound reason, not even a valid argument for the notion that a certain nation or people "deserve" or "should have" global supremacy or acknowledgement. That kind of thinking is universally anachronistic, and something that was thought dead since at least the beginning of the cold war, if not earlier; by the turn of the 20th centuries, most empires based on notions of racial or cultural supremacy (see: britain) were on the decline. France lasted the longest (although not much longer) arguably because from the very beginning it had treated its colonial citizens as equals under the law, and knew that their cooperation was necessary.
In spite of all this, your prediction of China as a global superpower by the middle of the century may well be true, but it will be a super-power that–like the united states–is hated and reviled by those who are not its allies; the PRC will have used its military might to finlandize—if not annex outright–its neighbors by force rather than common values, and it will almost certainly have repaid Japan in kind for what the unelected Japanese military junta did roughly 70 years ago. It is quite clear, judging by the PRC's current behavior of sovereignty harrassment via the CMS and the practice of "what's mine is mine and we'll negotiate what's yours" that Chinese behavior as a superpower will only be an amplification of what it currently does, albeit with open military force rather than paramilitary organizations.
para82
@ACT: I want to make one thing clear. I'm American. I'm a former 82nd Airborne paratrooper who sreved honorably for America. This is the reason why my screen name is para82. I'm also no apologist for PRC. There was no true global power until the 19th century. In my opinion the Great Britain was the first true global power, then America, from the middle of the 20th century on. I do agree with you on that the IMPERICAL China, with the possible exception of the Sung Dynasty was expansionist in terms of either expanding it's territory or acquiring suzerainty over it's neighbors. I think the Qing Dynasty that was founded by non-Han Chnese Manchus was the most expansionist of all Chinese Dynasties. The Manchus doubled the Chinese territory by bringing Manchuria and conquering Mongolia, Tibet, Xinjiang. On the teritorial disputes, I hope it will be solved peacefully to everbody's satisfaction. I also hope if China ever becomes a superpower , it won't be like America.
Kim’s Uncle
@ para aka: angry chinaman, nice speech but the method of accounting for national income was not developed until the 1960s !!!!! LOL. When people cite GDP/GNP before that time it is consider a GUESS!! That’s hardly scientific! All you did is cite a bunch of guesses from people with an opinion. Wow, this is the extent of Chinese civilization!! Chinese civilization is so impressive that they had to copy a defunct western doctrine called communism? Chinese can’t even think up of their own bad ideas! That’s funny!
It is clearly you have issue with Western/ European civilization your cries for respect makes you even ridiculous as we know most of the greatest achievements of mankind were derived from the West. That’s undeniable but you choose to deny this fact and conflate the limited achievements of Chinese civilization for mankind strikes me as childish! Even Chinese scientists today do not deny this!
Once again I ask anyone to name me an individual Chinese scientist on par with respect to Einstein or Newton? None!! Stop living in denial! The modern world is the product of the West china just came along because the knowledge that flowed from western rational mind n reasoning help china rise out of barbarism!
No one is denying ancient Europeans learning from other people they came into contact with! That’s fact, that’s life! We all learn from the accumulated knowledge from people that came before us. But the fact remains the Age of Enlightenment was a product of western culture! Man started to think based on reason, logic, and rationalism rather than prejudicial emotions like the kind I hear from your posts! Scientific method was the direct result of western rational thinking instead of Chinese emotional thinking!
I can see by your comments you still think like the Chinese way!
para82
@Kim's Uncle: Boy, you sound like a low IQ WHITIE with serious mental issues. LOL !!!!!
Kim’s Uncle
@ Para,
I think you're getting quite abusive in your speech and have resorted to name calling and accusing others with a different opinion than you as racist! Your crude attempt at pulling the race card is a sign of desperation because you're not here to really debate the issue instead you got out of your way to provoke. That is an emotional and childish response! I never once made any comments about white supremacy or any kind of racial context. It is you who is racist because as soon as you can't make an argument you accuse others of racism! The shame is not you!
Re-read what you wrote to Jean Paul. From the very beginning all Jean Paul did was comment that China was not or has ever been a "global power". That's a fact! Admiral Zheng He may have sailed to Africa but that's it! As soon as Jean Paul wrote China was only a regional power, you pounced on him calling himdumb etc… China ain't no freaking global power, get over it!
I could care less about race. It is a social construct. I know enough about anthrolopogy and genetics to know in a biological sense all human beings are homo sapiens originating from Africa. That's fact! We are all essentially Africans.
Now listen up, just because you believe China was the source and inspiration of all knowledge on earth does not mean that me or Jean Paul believe that kind BS!! Understood? You can believe whatever you want and you can use whatever faulty sources and unreasonable assumptions you want does not mean I have to conform to your superstitions and beliefs.
A lot of people are critical of Needham's and others you have mention about their methodology and reasoning. There is no consensus to the validity of Needham's claims. It just shows he was highly biased and was reading into more that what facts were actually existed.
My view is that Western culture is more inclusive, open minded, rational and tolerant than other culture. That's why you see Western culture as welcoming other people into their culture. Now compare that to modern day China.
I see you never bothered to answers any my questions so I assuming you're just here to rant and browbeat others. How sad is that!
Chinese ethnocentrism is very real. Just ask any non-Chinese Asians about Chinese condescending attitude towards Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Filippinos, Thais, Burmese ,etc. One thing I admired about the Japanese during the Meiji Restoration was they were open minded enough to learn from the West and industrialized. They did not have the haughty attitude and ingrained arrogance of Chinese to dismiss the Western knowlege. Thus, China plunged into 500 years of darkness. Europeans were not perfect. But at least they have evolved enough to give us democracy and respect for human rights today. Europeans when out and became explorers and conquerors while Chinese just sat on their behinds proclaimed they were the middle kingdom. Sorry, babe, I don't worship your China or your Chinese people! Here is what Japanese leader during the Meiji Restoration said about the challenges of the West, Yukichi Fukuzawa, the intellectual leader of Japan’s nineteenth-century Meiji transformation into a modern state, famously argued in 1885:“We do not have time to wait for the enlightenment of our neighbors so that we can work together toward the development of Asia. It is better for us to leave the ranks of Asian nations and cast our lot with civilized nations of the West.”
Let me guess, your next response will be accusing me of "white supremacism!" LOL… Whatever! I think you seriously have problems with white people because you make so many disparaging remarks against ancient Greeks. It's funny Europeans can acknowlege the contributions of other people while Chinese keep claiming credit for things that are so vague and little connection to reality.
Btw, stop claiming China GDP was the biggest blah blah…. Like I said, the system for accounting for national income was not developed until the 1960s so anybody who makes claims to the contrary is simply GUESSING!!!!!!!!! Understand? Go read "Economics Does Not Lie" Guy Sorman.
para82
@Kim's Uncle: As usaual, you are spewing out a lot of b.s.. You really have a short memory, don't you? Don't you realize that you are the one who first started using a racial slur by using the derogatory term "chinaman"? Man, you either have a very selective memory or suffer from a bad case of amnesia, LOL !!!! You are also contradicting yourself big time in your last comment. Now you say we are all essentially Africans because we originated from Africa. I"ll go along with that. Wow !!! you sound like a reasonable non-racist person, but you change your tune very fast to be your racist self again by saying "my view is that Western culture is more inclusive, open-minded, rational and tolerant than OTHER culture". Man, you really make me LMAO !!!! "Tolerant", "inclusive" "open-minded" WESTERN culture? Wow!!!! you'd got to be kidding !!!!! You just tell that to the Africans or black Americans or native Americans who really suffered tremendously from the "inclusive" and "tolerant", open-minded" Western racism,slavery, discrimination.. I want you come to Harlem, New York and make that kind of speech and find out what kind of reception you would get. It's very transparent that you still believe in the outdated Eurocentricism that must be swept into the dust bin of history. Also you are good at putting words in my mouth. I never said China was a global power or "the source and inspiration for all knowledge on the earth". Please tell me when I said such a thing. you surely are making things up. As a matter of fact, there was NO global power until the 19th century. It's also very obvious you don't know much about Needham. He was a very well-respected scholar. He was the only living scholar who held three titles: a fellow of the Royal Society, a fellow of the British Academy, COMPANIONSHIP of HONOUR. I really don't think an academic fraud would have gotten this kind of honor, do you? Your ignorance about China is truely monumental. For your information, there had been a lot of intercourse between China and Europe since the ancient times. There was a lot of trade between the Han Dynasty and the Roman Empire through both silk roads and maritime silk routes. As a result of this silk road trade, very large amounts of the Roman gold ended up in China, because the Roman Empire imported large amounts of Chinese silk and suffered huge trade deficits with China. There was trade with not only Europeans but also Arabs and sub-Indian continentals throughout the Chinese dynasties. So the statement that China had closed itself off from the rest of the world or as you say "sitting on it's behind" is a pure nonsense. Also from the 16th centuty on, both Ming and Qing dynasities allowed the Jesuite missions to station in China. The Jesuits were great transmitters of many of the advanced Chinesse technologies to Europe and they also transmitted some European technologies to China. So this is an utter nonsense that China had been a closed society. According to ReORIENT,a book written by Andre Gunder Frank, about 40% of all the silver mined in Americas by Europeans between the 16th and the 19th century. ended up in China, because Europeans only had silver to sell to China for their imports of Chinese porcelain, silk, processed tea. As usual, China enjoyed huge trade surpluses vis a vis Europe. Not only the European ships but also far larger number of the ships from the South East Asia came to the Chinese ports. Also many Chinese ships went to many South Eastern Asian places such as Manila in Luzon, Aceh in Sumatra, Malacca in Malaysia etc. So in view of all these hstorical evidence, your contention that China was "sitting on it's behind" is a pure nonsense. You talk about many of China's neighbors don't like China. By the same token, ASK Koreans, Chinese, Singaporeans, how they feel about Japan that committed many horrible atrocities during the World War 2. Also ASK Rusians, Poles, Ukranians, Norwegians,Czeks, Slovaks, how they feel about Germany and ASK Afghans, Pakistanis, and Arabs specially Palestinians, Iraqis, how they feel about America. What don't you understand about Greece which was the biggest copycat of the ancient world? I guess the ancient Greece is "the source and inspiration for all knowledge on the earth" in the twisted minds of one-sided, nearsighted, misinformed Eurocentrists. What happend to the "inclusive,open-minded, rational tolerant" Western culture, when " democratic" Amerca had slavery and comitted a near-genocide against the native Americans and until 1964 there was the legal segregation against blacks in the Deep South of so-called democratic America? Your statements are full of contradictions,hypocracies, half-truths. They don't hold water, period. My poor man, You shoud take a very serious remedial course on the world history, LOL!!!! Please remember that I'm not Chinese. I might be black,hispanic, native American, non-Chinese Asian or even WHITE, LOL !!!!!!
Kim’s Uncle
@ para, the Sino-supremacist!
I think I hit a nerve in your sino-centric world view! How come you’re so angry? Anger is not logical! Did you know ancient Greeks develop logic? Or you going to tell me Chinese invented logic too? LOL.
Again you keep citing a bunch white scholars who have a weird fascination with Chinese culture as “proof” of Chinese superiority!!! Let me guess more rants about Needham, Hobson, etc. yeah, we heard already! Stop repeating yourself like a parrot! Nobody of consequence accepts the belief that China was the inspiration of European Enlightenment!!! LOL! Now you tell me China was the inspiration for the founder of economics, Adam Smith???? LOL. That is quite a stretch!! Dude, you make me laugh!
You people are so laughable! It is the same type of Chinese tofu logic as Chinese claiming that South China Sea n east china sea belong to china because the word china is in it!!!
I have several books on history of mathematics but the one I like the most is by Carl Boyer. It has 27 chapters and the only chapter on Chinese “mathematics” is one chapter and that chapter is shared with India! LoL.
You need to read a more balanced n objective history if the world not just ones praising china by western scholars! Btw, how come Chinese can’t write their own history n achievements? Why must they rely on western writers to chronologue their achievements? You still haven’t even answer any of my questions?
Why can’t you cite one individual Chinese with a name as example if a great thinker? Just one??? China’s 5000 year old civilization can’t come up with one Chinese who had profound influence on the world?
You silence just means the admission that there is no such thing as a Chinese thinker who has a profound impact on the world or else you would have named it!
Btw you claim to be an American but doesn’t under cut your premise that there is nothing better under the sun than china? How come china can’t produce a civilization that can transcend race, religion and ethnicity like the US ?
You have a typical, narrow minded Chinese mindset that think Chinese is the best no matter what! Now who is racist again ? In Western culture we value individual achievement regardless of race and culture! You think being a Chinese etnicity is an achievement! That is a racist mindset! You can’t credit for the achievements if others by purely being of the same skin tone!!!
Chinese are so funny! Joseph Needham this Joseph Needham that !!! One book and Chinese think they are the master of the world!
para82
@Kim's Uncle.: Boy, you are so amazing !!!!!. You make me LOL !!!! I think you either lost your train of thought or have a very short memory syndrome. Either way, I want you to go back to your comments and read them to yourself. Up to your last post, you have made very decicive white supremacist comments. Now you are telling me you are a lovey-dovey non-racist humanitarian ? Boy, you have changed yourself very fast. What happened? Did you just take some kind of pill that changed you from a white racist to an all -caring humanitarian? Believe me, I'm not Chinese. . I never said Chinese were superior to Indians or Moslems. In response to your white supremacist b.s., I stated that from the ancient times to the Industrial Revolution, the European civilization was basically copying and adoptive culture rather than a creative one. Since you seem to have a very short memory, I'm going to refresh it by repeating some of my previous comments. As one can see, the ancient Greek civilization was not one of the original civilizations. The Greeks copied wholesale the Egyptian and Babylonian astronomy, math, medicine. The Greek Alphabet was based on the non- European Phoenician alphabet and in turn the Roman alpabet was based on the Greek Alphabet. How about the European religion, Christianty? It came from non- European Jews. From the beginning, there was no originanalty in the European civilization. On the other hand, China is one of the original civilizations in the world. China developed it's own astronomy, mathmatics, written language independently and the Confucianism which is not a religion but a kind of living philosophy that still affects all the East Asians. Also such European events as the Renaissance, Scientific Revolution, voyages of discovery, Enlightenment, Industrial Revolution, were heavily influenced by the inventions and discoveries by Chinese and Islamic civilizations. You are the one who has been denying other peoples; accomplishmets. According to you, it's all Europeans and Americans. If you go back to one of my comments, I gave the Europeans and Americans the due credit for dominance in science and technology over the last 200 years. As you can see almost every civilization contributed in developing science and technology. You sound like you don't know much about China. So my advice to you is learn more about China, before going off half-cocked. During the period of the HUNDRED SCHOOLS OF THOUHT that lasted from about 770 BC to 220 BC, ancient China accomplished in the area of schlarship at least as much as the ancient Greeks. There were many schools of thought such as Confucianism, Taoism, Mohism, Legalism and many more. Also, there were many Chinese school of logicians. Some were of them were very smilar to sophists or dialecticians of the ancient Greece. There were so many Chinese philosophers and great thinkers at this time period. Such great Chinese thinkers as Confucius, Lozi, Mozi, Jiang ZI, Menfucius, Sun Zi, Gongsun Longji and many more wouldn't have had any problem going toe to toe with the likes of Socrates, Aristotle, Plato. The Confucianism still dominates 1.7 billion East Asian people living in China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, It really doesn't matter whether you are Christian or Buddhist or communist, you can still live your life as a Confucian , I'm not advocaing Chinese are superior to anybody else. How can I? I'm not even Chinese but I think I'm just as good as Chinese or anybody else. As I said before, not only Chinese or Europeans but also eveybody else contributed to the betterment of our human civilization. Race doesn't matter from now on, because our descendants will be all mixed together pretty soon.
nirvana
China invented the magnetic compass, but it was Vasco de Gama who first circum navigated the earth.
China invented the abacus, but IBM and Apple made the first personal computer.
China invented fireworks, but the only nation that has ever send man to the Moon is USA.
China invented steel, but Eiffel built the Paris tower.
China invented the Chinese Remainder Theorem, but no Chinese has yet been awarded the Field medal.
China invented noodles, but the Italian spaghettis are best.
China also invented the "9-dotted line", nobody else has copied it yet.
nirvana
Oups, it was Magellan that first circum navigated the world.
Another interesting question in science discovery: when did the Chinese realize that the world is not square?
para82
Ya, I'm very impressed with your OUTSTANDING intellegence, confusing Vasco Da Gama with the other guy from Portugal, LMAO !!!! The last time I heard, the great country of Portugal was drowning in a big debt. Ya, you are right, America went to the moon and have IBM, Apple, but still owes China more than 1 trillion dollars. French built the Eiffel Tower but German troops went through it, I'll take delicious lo mein over dull spaghetti any time. An 18 dotted line is a lot better than a 9 dotted line. Oh, by the way, who told you that you confused Da Gama with the other guy from Portugal ? What ? a 9-year kid ? LOL !!!!!!
William O. B’Livion
Because there's over a billion of them, and the government has imperial tendencies and is actively expansionistic.
It's a lot easier to follow down trails that others have blazes. China has copied, borrowed or stolen the vast majority of it's "advances" since Mao sinosized Marx and Lenin.
Well, you're right about one thing.
No, actually it doesn't. China has a long history of NOT being a world power. In fact China's only really claim to world anything right now is that it's got relatively cheap labor and effectively no environmental laws making it a great place for western companies to build factories that would be less profitable to put in places where the government actually gave a shit wether it's people were poisoned or not.
Maybe, but see as soon as we stop buying stuff your house collapses.
The era of colonialism was over 120 years ago. Every major player in the world stopped the imperialist expansionist shit right after WWII.
Well, except China. They seemed to think they were entitled to Tibet and North Korea.
sunful-tulip
You have no sense of history that is not associated with western civilization and you are a racist, so no point urging you to read world history. you are a brainwashed capitalist!