Australia’s relations with Vietnam have been solid for many years. Canberra was among the first to open a Western mission in Hanoi after the Vietnam War ended in 1975. This was despite Australia’s absolute support for the United States and its Cold War battlegrounds in Indochina.
These days, two-way trade is worth in excess of $5 billion, and regional political power plays are helping both countries to forge strategic relations. But the sting in the tail of the Vietnam War remains.
Recently, senior figures in the Returned & Services League of Australia (RSL) attempted to formalize a relationship with their one time adversaries – the Viet Cong who fought in the former South Vietnam and North Vietnam’s military.
About 60,000 Australians served in the conflict from 1962 till 1972, 500 died and another 3,000 were wounded. The numbers pale when compared with Vietnamese or even US casualties, but were significant given Australia’s mission and its much smaller population base.
No sooner had moves been made to establish a memorandum of understanding and foster a greater understanding between the two former enemies than RSL National President Rear Adm. Ken Doolan issued a one line press release saying the MoU had been scrapped.
Why? No reason was given, although Doolan had previously argued a form of rapprochement was needed because ‘we owe it to the future to do all we can to bring former enemies together.’
However, Ron Coxon from the Vietnam Veterans Association of Australia said the RSL – which looks after the interests of veterans and their families of all wars – hadn’t consulted members. Hardline vets had apparently accused the RSL of gross betrayal. Coxon added the vast majority of Vietnam vets had opposed the agreement and their opinions were influenced by Australians who came as refugees from South Vietnam.
Most had fled the incoming Communists in 1975 or were forced out of their homeland four years later because they were ethnic Chinese and consequently bullied and expelled after Beijing attacked Vietnam’s northern border in retaliation for Hanoi’s invasion of Cambodia.
Phong Nguyen, president of the Vietnamese Community in Australia, said it was a great relief to learn the MoU wouldn’t be signed, adding that while his community did not hate anyone, it was difficult to shake hands with a regime that doesn’t respect human rights.
The Vietnamese did the world a favour by invading Cambodia and ousting Beijing-backed Pol Pot, but their treatment of fellow Vietnamese who opted to remain after the collapse of the South Vietnamese government simply because of their Chinese ethnicity was reprehensible.
Hanoi owes them an apology. Financial compensation wouldn’t be out of order, either.
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A Louie Louie
Professor, if Vietnamese are Han Chinese, as you say, why is their language not in the Sino-Tibetan family?
The origins of the Vietnamese language are very far back and very mysterious. I’ve studied it. And it gets more mysterious the deeper you go.
This much is clear. It does not come from China. Although being colonized by China probably prevented it from being Indianized like its cousin languages Khmer & Lao.
And sorry. You claimed Vietnamese were originally Han Chinese who migrated southward during the period of warring states.
You wrote:
“…because the Vietnamese are themselves Chinese who have always wanted to disown their brothers in order to secede from China. This pattern of behaviour is very common among Chinese warring factions throughout her history. ”
So when was period when Han Chinese moved south, became Vietnamese and started speaking a language that is from an entirely different family?
Enlighten us with some dates Professor. Thanks for the invite to take grad-tests. I’ve got my sheep-skins. I certainly would have a good time in your class though. You are the kind of professor I enjoyed the most.
Robin Martinez
Louie,
No need to look any further… DNA is the answer to your question of whether Vietnamese and Chinese are related. Here is a study done by the Medical college of Hanoi:
Titre du document / Document title
HLA-DR and -DQB1 DNA polymorphisms in a Vietnamese Kinh population from Hanoi
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
VU-TRIEU A. (1) ; DJOULAH S. (2) ; TRAN-THI C. (1) ; NGYUYEN-THANH T. (1) ; LE MONNIER DE GOUVILLE I. (2) ; HORS J. (2) ; SANCHEZ-MAZAS A. (3) ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
(1) Department of Immunology and Physiopathology, Medical College of Hanoi, VIET NAM
(2) LNH, Department of Immunology, Saint-Louis Hospital, University Paris VII, FRANCE
(3) Laboratory of Genetics and Biometry, University of Geneva, SUISSE
Résumé / Abstract
We report here the DNA polymerase chain reaction sequence-specific oligonucleotide (PCR-SSO) typing of the HLA-DR B1, B3, B4, B5 and DQB1 loci for a sample of 103 Vietnamese Kinh from Hanoi, and compare their allele and haplotype frequencies to other East Asiatic and Oceanian populations studied during the 11th and 12th International HLA Workshops. The Kinh exhibit some very high-frequency alleles both at DRB1 (1202, which has been confirmed by DNA sequencing, and 0901) and DQB1 (0301, 03032, 0501) loci, which make them one of the most homogeneous population tested so far for HLA class II in East Asia. Three haplotypes account for almost 50% of the total haplotype frequencies in the Vietnamese. The most frequent haplotype is HLA-DRB1*1202-DRB3*0301-DQB1*0301 (28%), which is also predominant in Southern Chinese, Micronesians and Javanese. On the other hand, DRB1*1201 (frequent in the Pacific) is virtually absent in the Vietnamese. The second most frequent haplotype is DRB1*0901-DRB4*01011-DQB1*03032 (14%), which is also commonly observed in Chinese populations from different origins, but with a different accessory chain (DRB4*0301) in most ethnic groups. Genetic distances computed for a set of Asiatic and Oceanian populations tested for DRB1 and DQB1 and their significance indicate that the Vietnamese are close to the Thai, and to the Chinese from different locations. These results, which are in agreement with archaeological and linguistic evidence, contribute to a better understanding of the origin of the Vietnamese population, which has until now not been clear.
Revue / Journal Title
European journal of immunogenetics ISSN 0960-7420
Source / Source
1997, vol. 24, no5, pp. 345-356 (1 p.1/4)
Langue / Language
Anglais
Editeur / Publisher
Blackwell, Oxford, ROYAUME-UNI (1991-2004) (Revue)
Mots-clés anglais / English Keywords
Don’t kill yourself, Louie. Life is short!
Thung Lũng Tình Yêu
@A Louie Louie
“…Professor, if your thesis claims that Vietnamese were Han Chinese who migrated south in 400-500 BCE…”
Do you read English? If you do, even if you are a native speaker, you have a reading comprehension problem. Go take a GRE and/or GMAT test to see for yourself your level of reading comprehension skills.
“…I suggest you start consulting Wiki…”
When it comes to history, Wiki is the place that I avoid like a plague. By the way, I’ll automatically give an F grade to any history essay that quotes Wiki as a reference.
“…and stop reading whoever it is you’re reading…”
Are you telling all, I mean all, serious and accomplished Vietnamese historians to stop reading professor Đào Duy Anh’s research and start consulting Wiki? Today is not April 2nd, you know.
“… Concerning whether Chu Nom is comprehensible to Chinese, I only rely on anecdote…”
Thanks for your honesty.
“…I asked a Chinese woman to read something in Chu Nom one time. She told me it made no sense to her. She could pronounce it though…”
You have proven my point. She could pronounce it and that means she can recognize the words as simply Chinese or modified Chinese, but the order of the words in the context of a Chinese sentence makes no sense to her. On top of that, it makes no sense to her whatsoever unless she reads and understands classical Chinese even if she’s Chinese and can pronounce every word.
Thung Lung Tinh Yeu
Why do Vietnamese hate Chinese so much? The reason is very simple; because the Vietnamese are themselves Chinese who have always wanted to disown their brothers in order to secede from China. This pattern of behaviour is very common among Chinese warring factions throughout her history. The more recent manifestation of this behaviour is the ‘war lord’ epidemic after 1911 and the latest Taiwan – Mainland conflict is again a continuation of that pattern.
The late professor Dao Duy Anh, the most respected history professor and whose history students include the majority of all accomplished Vietnamese historians to date, has among his most important published research the affirmation of the Chinese origin of the Vietnamese people; as from one of the Chinese states during China’s Warring Kingdoms Period (Cố giáo sư Đào Duy Anh là ông thầy uyên bác của đa số các nhà sử học có tiếng Việt Nam hiện nay, những tác phẩm nghiên cứu lịch sử quan trọng nhất trong sự nghiệp của giáo sư Anh, lại khẳng định người Việt di cư bằng thuyền đến đồng bằng sông Hồng sau khi nước Việt của Câu Tiễn bị xóa sổ thời Chiến Quốc!)
A Louie Louie
What would the esteemed professor make of the Hong Bang Dynasty of Vietnam?
It goes back almost 5,000 years. That would be roughly 2,500 years before the
warring States period in China.
Ah yes, and there is the Dong Son Period that predates the arrival of Han Chinese too.
Finally, linguistic drift alone, would indicate a much earlier origin for the Vietnamese people
than 2,400 years ago. It is a much older linguistic culture than that.
Viet
That is right! And there are different kind of bronze drums associated with Dong Son Period, which found mostly in North Vietnam. So Vietnamese are not Han Chinese for sure. It is funny though, the Chinese claims those bronze drums are of Chinese because they were also found in South China but they ignored the fact that South China was once BaiYue county, which was ancestral land of the present Vietnamese.
John Chan
I always suggest that Vietnam should get rid of that ugly alien script and return to their ancestor’s root, so we can understand each other a lot better.
Cam
@john chan.
We can’t understand you either you use English or Chinese or Vietnamese or any other languages. The only language you and your CCP handlers can understand better is force. By the way, I can see Vietnamese in general use English better than Chinese, perhaps because of “ugly scripts” you were mentioning here.
A Louie Louie
Chu Nom script could not be read by Chinese. So it would not assist JC in his quest for mutual understanding even if Vietnam returned to it.
It was derived from Mandarin script. But the Chinese occupiers could not read it.
They used classical Chinese. The Vietnamese created their own script that their
occupiers could not read.
Chinese don’t seem to understand Vietnam or Vietnamese people very well. Tieng Viet is very different
from any language or dialect found in that part of the world. It was not Indianized like Thai
or Lao. But it is not Sinic either, although many formal words were taken from Cantonese.
The origins are quite a mystery. And it’s a mystery that is thousands of years old.
The idea that Vietnamese people were originally Han Chinese during the Warring States era
is disproven by the language alone. But there is a lot of historical evidence to disprove it
as well. The Dong Son drums for example.
Thung Lũng Tình Yêu
@A Louie Louie
To say that “Chữ Nôm” could not be read by Chinese is really stretching it; it’s like saying the British could not read the English dialect from Jamaica. If you read both Chinese and Chữ Nôm, your depth in these two must be shallow at best, if you don’t read both Chinese and Chữ Nôm, you just don’t know what you are talking about. Chữ Nôm is basically Chinese modified to suit the Vietnamese dialect in which some of the positions of the adjective and the noun are switched. The very Chữ Nôm is indicative of that. In Chinese these two words are in the order of Nôm first and then Chữ, and in Chữ Nôm, the order is Chữ first and then Nôm. But either way, it means words (Chữ) of the South (Nôm which is the old (and dialectical) way of pronouncing Nam as in Viet Nam).
I once did a thesis that shows that from the three most popular Vietnamese history books written by the three most respected Vietnamese historians, 92% of all the words in these books can be traced back to their Chinese roots, 65% can be identified immediately and directly, 23% can be identified indirectly through the tracing them back to classical Chinese words that are no longer or rarely used in contemporary Chinese, the remaining 8% that I was not able to trace them back to a Chinese root are mostly prepositions. In other words, almost 100% of all the nouns, adjectives and verbs can be traced back to their Chinese roots, the only exception is in regards to prepositions.
Has professor Dao Duy Anh written on Hồng Bàng, Đồng Sơn and Bách Việt? You bet he has. Go dig it up and read his works and see for yourself.
Stay away from Wikipedia and Google please. Go find the real books written by professor Dao Duy Anh, sit down and read them slowly, page by page.
A Louie Louie
Professor, if your thesis claims that Vietnamese were Han Chinese who migrated south in 400-500 BCE, I suggest you start consulting Wiki and stop reading whoever it is you’re reading. That is easily disproven by the Vietnamese language alone. Add in Dong Son & Hong Bang. It’s a fallacious assertion.
Concerning whether Chu Nom is comprehensible to Chinese, I only rely on anecdote. I asked a Chinese woman to read something in Chu Nom one time. She told me it made no sense to her. She could pronounce it though.
Mirage
Hopefully, Malaysia, Philippines and Indonesia will unite forces and expel all Chinese to the sea. Vietnam only did what it had to – please go home to your polluted and isolated hermit kingdom – most of the chinese women are actually okay, but please chinese men, leave.
The same should be done in USA, Australia, Canada and Europe!
John Chan
@Mirage,
Do you mean all Whiteman should be expelled from the USA, Australia, and Canada in order to remove those polluted elements from those lands?
Sapper George
Someone has cunningly brought the “Chinese thing” in as a red herring.
When the Americans went home Hanoi invaded the south, closed the doors to Vietnam and then executed hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese nothing to do with
“Chinese” they imprisoned, tortured and brainwashed tens of thousands and drove
millions into the sea on boats and into refugee camps throughout Asia, And yet they build and promote Museums of hate in Vietnam to the atrocities of others.
No recognition for “Vietnamese of the South has been given so how would they
want a memorandum of understanding with anyone.In the past 20 years millions given by aussie help groups have been directed away from southern people.
John Chan
@Leonard R,
Australia was one of the party that bombed and killed Vietnamese relentlessly, now they built some bridges, and schools, you called Australia the good neighbour. China was the one supplied food, material, weapons and people helped them gained independence, now China brings the whole Vietnam economy out of demise, and other countless assistance. You called China Vietnam’s enemy, what kind logic do you have?
Ridiculous? Only shameless people can put up such comment knows no right and wrong.
Cam
@John chan
China not long ago was the one that murdered the South Vietnamese sailors during sneaky invasion of the Paracels in 1974, and killed Vietnamese civilians during the retreat from earth scorching border war in 1979. Now the 3Bs China is drumming up for war to rob the Vietnamese lands and sea again. Countries go to war for different reasons. War is over, people move on. Vietnamese went to war with the Chinese, the French, the Japanese, and Americans. Things are back to normal but not with China. To the Viets, China is number one public enemy. Ask yourself a serious question Why? Because of people like John chan keeps spewing out the poisons, the insults, the lies, the threats combined with recent thugging behaviors in East sea.
Again, I ask you a basic question: don’t you know what is right from wrong? I know you don’t care what is coming out of your mouth.
Cam
@John chan
Again, did China apologize the Cambodians for her sponsor role of murderous Khmer Rouge during the killing fields, which resulted in more than 1.5 innocent Cambodians perished. Did you see row after row of human skulls displayed in the killing field museums all over Cambodia? I think you might see it on the TV, right? ( because I doubt you could travel outside of middle kingdom and interact with barbaric people) How did you feel? Is there still a sense of compassion in you for fellow human beings killed by your CCP masters?
Cam
Correction: more than 1.5 millions, not 1.5
John Chan
@Cam,
Which nation do you come from? You are stirring up Vietnamese hostility toward China relentlessly with fabricated facts thru the thin air.
What’s in it for you to stir up hostility between Vietnam and China?
Cam
@John Chan,
“fabricated facts”? can you read?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/02/world/asia/02iht-cambo.html?pagewanted=all
The Chinese supports that gave the murderous Khmer Rouge a free ride in the killing fields is a well known fact and they shamelessly refuse to give an official apology to the Cambodian people, again proves they are not trustworthy for any conciliation process.
Cam
You are the one stir up hostility between Vietnam and China. You and the co are drumming up for war to rob lands and seas from the weaker nations. It is moral obligation for me to reveal your lies and poisonous mind – a scorpion instinct indeed.
John Chan
@Cam,
NYT, WSJ, etc. are the mouthpieces of the Westpac black information network to undermine other nation’s sovereignty. Broadcasting human rights abuses in Libya prior to the Bombing and killing is the classic handy work of the black information network. The things you said in your comments are pure fabrication. That’s why we have the disagreements here. Your facts are fabrication.
As long as you are quoting fabricated facts to smear and slander China, you are the one stirring up hostility and destroying peace and prosperity of SE Asia.
This site is for people to present different opinions, it is not for people to smear and slander others baselessly with fabricated facts, you and the anti-China clique are violating this blogging etiquette.
Cam
@jonh chan,
You are the one violate this site with full of lies, self make-up stuffs, insults, racist…should I go on?Anyone with a brain could see there isn’t a iota of the truth in what you have been saying all along. Anyway, thank you for keeping everyone entertained here.We will be sad and boring to death if one day you wouldn’t show up.
If you have some guts, why don’t you answers Nirvana’s question below here.
John Chan
@Cam,
Bigots always smear others like what you said, because they can’t face the truth.
a_canadian_observer
@cam: Be gentle on John Chan. We need hime here to entertain us.
nirvana
@John Chan,
Let’s face the facts:
1) You correctly said China and Vietnam share a lot of commons: borders, history, culture, language, inevitably inter-mixings, and similar political systems. Why do you think there is so much mutual distrust? Is it “friendship with Vietnamese characteristics”?
2) Vietnam had military conflicts with Japan, France, USA, Australia, SKorea, and ASEAN, but with each, only ONCE. After each conflict, the citizens of all these countries and the Vietnamese managed to move on. Better than that, Pres. Mitterrand of France went to Dien Bien Phu to pay tribute to French soldiers that fell there. Pres. Obama mentioned the battle of Khe Sanh in his inauguration speech. Did that create diplomatic incidents and protests in Vietnam? No !
3) How many times did Vietnam have military conflicts with China, from full invasions to skirmishes and “lessons”?
4) How many times in the last 12 months have you read a Vietnamese media, government controlled or abroad, calling for a war with China? How many times have you seen on TV Vietnamese military strategists discussing the best plan to teach China a lesson?
5) Do you think we encouraged Vietnamese and Chinese relatives of the fallen to jointly commemorate the border war of 1979, instead of you debating endless on who taught who a “lesson”, with some other Vietnamese hot heads?
nirvana
Sorry for the typo, please read on the last point: “5) Do you think we should encourage Vietnamese and Chinese…”
John Chan
@nirvana,
Those provocative comments about 1979 lesson may not be posted by the Vietnamese, those vicious attacks on China are most like posted by the anti-China clique from neo-con black information network with insidious intent. If those vicious attacks are not rebuffed and rebuked, pretty soon they will become the de factor facts.
Once those fabricated facts become de factor facts, it leads to the justification of bombing and killing the Westpac has been carrying out all around the world since WWII. Sudan, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya are the precedents.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: That’s not answering nirvana’s questions. Oh, I forgot, you can’t. You have to make up lies. BTW, keep on entertaining us.
SCdad07
‘Marriage’ between Chinese man and Vietnam woman is the happy answer.
Leonard R.
@SCdad07
You are right. VN women love Chinese men so much.
They have an affectionate nickname for them.
They call them ‘little emperors’.
The women line up waiting to meet their little emperor.
SCdad07 has a good idea.
John Chan
@a_canadian_observer,
Creative revisionist calling others making up is a wrong thing to do. Remember what Thumper said? If you can’t say something meaningful, don’t say nothing at all.
a_canadian_observer
@SCdad07:
” ‘Marriage’ between Chinese man and Vietnam woman is the happy answer.”
I feel sorry for you. Your mindset is still from previous cnturies.
Cam
@john chan,
If you can’t say something meaningful. Don’t say nothing at all. Otherwise, you are very bad example for people make fun of Chinese and CCP. I never see anything good coming out of your mouth so far.
dripable service
I agree completely!
Leonard R.
Australia has been a good neighbor to Vietnam. It has built bridges, schools, universities. Other Western countries should follow Australia’s examples in these areas.
But it is unrealistic in extremis to ask Hanoi to apologize to China.
In fact, that’s the most ridiculous suggestion I’ve heard this year.
The two countries can get along fine without this MOU. Just put it in the file
and forget about it.
Frank
USA should apologize to Vietnam.
The_Observer
I do believe the article was referring to Chinese Vietnamese subjects who were expelled and put on boats. I live in Melbourne and many of those persecuted boat refugees who survived the journey, Chinese Vietnamese and native Vietnamese have done well for themselves and their children. You can go down Victoria Street and see how much better they have done for themselves than they would have back in Saigon under the communists. That, however does not excuse the hardship forced upon them by the ethnic clensing that was carried out by the Vietnames government and in no way it compensate for the many that did not make it. Yes, the Vietnamese government does owe an apology to all the refugees they created, many of them whose families are now scattered around the world.
Viet
@ have you ever heard of any communist govt, especially Asian communists apologize to their victims for those horrible mistakes they made, just once? NO, never. Unlike their counterparts in Europe, those Asian communists never admitted what they did were wrong because, then their legitimacy for holding power is questionable. So asking the Vietnamese commies for mistreatment of the ethnic Chinese is out of question. The same can be said about Chinese, Khmer Rouge and NKorean commies (please don’t ask me when, what, how, who and where). Also, don’t forget that the Vietnamese commies treated their own brothers/sisters, the south Vietnamese, even worse after the fall of Saigon. This is why, more than 3 decades after the war, the perpetrators and their victims are still bitter. And yes, we are still demanding an apology from them. Only sincere apology combined with some kinds of compensations could heal the open wound over time.
Observer
Apologize to chinese?
How about china apologize and offer compensation for the repeating attempts of invasion and 1000 years of enslavement of Vietnam?
Talk is cheap, how about that, china?
Grant
One should not hold members of a an ethnic/racial group responsible for a what state ruled by that racial/ethnic group has done in much the same way that the U.S had no moral right* to intern Japanese-American citizens. Also generally I don’t think it’s a good idea to hold anyone responsible for something their ancestors might have done more than two to three centuries ago. You might use it as evidence of geography and politics, but it has no place in morality.
Observer
@ Grant – no I am not talking about hundreds of years ago. That would not be enough space to write about all the crimes of china against Vietnam.
I am talking about china cowardice and sneaky attack on South Vietnam at Paracel Islands in 1974, china attack on North Vietnam in 1979, and china attack on Vietnam at Spratly Islands in 1988. Let china offer apology and compensation then we can talk further.
nirvana
@Observer
I think Grant is right. The US government apologized to their Japanese-American citizens because their loyalty was unjustly put in doubt(many of them fought bravely in Korea under US flag). The Vietnamese government should also apologize to their Chinese-Vietnamese CITIZENS, if the reason of their mistreatment was simply their Chinese lineage.
Righteousness always defeats violence.
John Chan
@Observer,
Vietnam was a part of Chinese once upon a time; its future lies with China. It can either be deeply integrated with China like Canada to USA or become part of China like the old days.
Its recent bad behaviour is the result of bad influence from the barbaric colonisation by the alien from a land near the Mediterranean Sea. Once Vietnam returns to their ancestor’s root, Vietnam and China will live happily together ever after.
Planting acrimony and stirring up hostility with fabricate facts is a wrong thing to do.
Cam
@jon chan,
I heard once upon a time, China was a part of Mongol empire, should China return to its Mongol root? Manchuria was once a part of Korean ancestral lands, which was annexed by China. Don’t you think it should be included as Korean lost lands and needs to be returned to the Koreans? We think they should. Just wait for a right time.
China recent bad behaviors are the result of bad influence from the barbaric CCP wrong calculations. It thought I could intimidate the small and weaker nations but the CCP is getting old, therefore they are losing their memory. That is why I didn’t remember the lesson learned in 1979. The Vietnamese would happily teach the 3Bs China a lesson again. I am afraid this time, it could spell an end of the China rise.
John Chan
@Cam,
Yes, China was a part of Mongol empire once; also Mongol was part of China many times. Mongol is part of the root of China now, only a minority of reneged Mongol living poorly in a separate regime due to the sabotage from an alien from a land far in the West.
Korea was a part of China too once upon a time.
I remembered well about 1979, it was a sad event due to Vietnam listening to the misguided advice from the aliens in the West. Those aliens from the West are still not happy enough about the amount of dead Vietnamese in their 1979 defeat, they are continue stirring up Vietnamese hostility toward China like you in order to get more Vietnamese killed. Those aliens are a devil with a human face but the heart of a beast.
a_canadian_observer
chinese belong to the Mongloid race, so china belongs to Mongolia. Period.
John Chan
Europe conqurered by the Mongol, so European belongs to the Mongloid race Period.
Grant
Actually the Mongols never really got into what we usually consider ‘Europe’. They held a large part of what’s called Russia, but Russia is only European in that most of the power and wealth is concentrated in western Russia. However, the point is still valid. If Vietnam should be part of China (under Chinese rule) because of history then China should be part of Mongolia (under Mongolian rule) because of history. There’s a reason I don’t accept territorial claims about lost land if it’s been more than a century since a nation lost it’s land.
John Chan
Some Mongols warriors got as far as mount Alps and the Rhein and settled there.
Only de factor sovergnty counts in this world, even nations occupy lands illegally; they make up their own stories to justify their illegal occupation as de jure. Arbitrary time limit is nothing more than creative means to legitimize illegality.
Grant
So these ‘arbitrary’ time limits are wrong because they minimize potential for idiotic conflicts based on events over a thousand years ago? Funny, my opinion would put the U.S at a disadvantage* and help other groups while yours would only benefit China. Perhaps we should switch countries so you can be the horrible imperialist while I can be the heroic communist.
*Specifically the First Nation tribes who were in the Americas first.
Cam
@grant,
Being “heroic communist” like john chan, you would surely become a rich man. Imagine an very old man sitting almost all day in a CCP propaganda room spitting on a screen, throwing insults and lies to all over the world in a luxury room surrounded by the “pleasure squad”. Would you like to trade?
Phil
“their treatment of fellow Vietnamese who opted to remain after the collapse of the South Vietnamese government simply because of their Chinese ethnicity was reprehensible.”
As far as I was told, this has nothing to do with Chinese ethnicity. Million of pure Vietnamese were put in concentration camp or suffered bad treaments regardless of they are Chinese or not.
Grant
I think this is a bit too much on one side. Strategically and economically it makes sense for Australia to have better ties and there aren’t many strong reasons against it.
Frank
“The Vietnamese treatment of fellow Vietnamese who opted to remain after the collapse of the South Vietnamese government simply because of their Chinese ethnicity was reprehensible. Hanoi owes them an apology. Financial compensation wouldn’t be out of order, either.”
Well said. China should use its military power to ensure that happens.
Unlike Republic of China’s KMT government, Chinese Communist government did not treat overseas Chinese as their own, because Zhou Enlai’s mental weakness.
Despite the bad treatment, overseas Chinese contributed so much to China’s reform and openness which lead to the Great Resurrection of China today.
It is time for Chinese communist government to learn from Republic of China.
Frank
That said, I still think that Vietnamese and Chinese are brothers and sisters.
ong fen chong
why not husband and wife????
Frank
Chinese are Vietnamese should not kill each other.
Most of those who are promoting a war between us are either white men or their East Indian servants.
Thanh
Shouldn’t single out that Vietnam mistreated their ethnic Chinese minorities. Look at every southeast asian country – in Malaysia, Indonesia, Burma, Laos, Cambodia – there has been history of anti-Chinese sentiment in all these countries. Why? Because the Chinese are often greedy, arrogant, and refusing to assimilate to the new cultures. It’s not fair that the article mentions the Hanoi regime abusing the Chinese. Besides, the Chinese will forever be enemies of the Vietnamese. China’s actions make even its so-called allies weary, suspicious and scared of its intentions. Countries like North Korea and Myanmar are only reliant on China because they have nowhere else to turn.
China should do some reflection and ask why even with its wealth – it cannot find friends beyond terrorist-Pakistan, hermit-North Korea, and internationally-isolated Myanmar, Iran and Sudan. Why don’t other countries like China? Because China and its people cannot be trusted. Their ulterior motives whether to make a quick buck at the expense of others, their selfish greedy thirst for resources, power, and domination of others, their lack of morals and apathy towards human rights, they are bullies to the weak and smaller nations while they are cowards to the ones their size or stronger AND finally their arrogance in believing they are the “Middle Kingdom” with the “Mandate of Heaven,” serious BS!!!
In conclusion, China and the Chinese people don’t make it easy for others to like them. And that Vietnamese and others’ dislike/animosity is well-justified. No apologies.
Godknows
So, you, your people and your country is hopeless.
With your call for human rights, just look at what you’ve said, hope God will forgive u.
Frank
“the Chinese will forever be enemies of the Vietnamese.”
Hold on. I think Chinese should forever be brothers and sisters of Vietnamese.
Be careful of what you wish for. Your wish could come true one day. You will be regret for sure.
Frank
Do not listen to my words. Take a look at what we have. And what you have.
a_canadian_observer
We’ve seen what you have (or have stolen) and what the Vietnamese have, for a few thousand years. We all know the results. What is your point?
Sinodefender
Pray,tell me a_canadian_observer what have Chinese stolen from Vietnamese?
Frank
He is an East Indian. I am wondering why this East Indian always want to discuss issues related to China.
East Indian Gentleman
Hey Frank,
Back to debate! Don’t talk garbage in here!Poor commie!
Frank
East Indians are trying to be their masters again.
I only heard English Gentleman and East Indian servant.
East Indian Gentleman-Frank’s Great Master
hey Frank,
Again, don’t talk garbage in this forum! Back to debate, please!Don’t waste our golden time!
Artis
I’m answering you in place of the canadian: what chinese have stolen from vietnamese:
In the late 20th century:
- Vietnamese lives during the short invasion in 1979.
- The Paracel islands, islets in the Spratleys archipelago, and territories next to the northern border ( the Tam quan bordergate area, the Ban Gioc waterfall area…
What else ?!
Sinodefender
@ Artis,and I can argue that those lands belonged to China before Vietnamese,before be rightfully reclaimed,however I rather not since these debates usually end in flame wars…
a_canadian_observer
There would not be any problem if countries intend resolve the issues through the UN, based on international laws with credible facts and evidences for their claims, instead of using bullist, pirate-like tactics.
ong fen chong
why are you so anti chinese???
Frank
Because he is an East Indian.
Cam
You are the most Chinese racist I’ve ever seen on this site.
a_canadian_observer
@cam: It’s OK. We need people like him :)