In a new twist this week to the stand-off between China and the Philippines at Scarborough Shoal, 66 Vietnamese, many of them well-known public figures in Vietnam and within the Vietnamese Diaspora, signed a letter to the Philippine Ambassador in Vietnam to express support for the Philippines’ “sovereign rights” in the continuing stand-off. The main points of the letter are:
1) Support for the “sovereign rights” of the Philippines in the Scarborough Shoal.
2) Opposition to China’s use of the “nine-dashed line” to make overlapping claims with the Exclusive Economic Zones and continental shelves of the Philippines, Vietnam and other ASEAN countries, as well as opposition to “China’s actions and threats of force,” the latter presumably referring to articles in China’s state controlled press.
3) Support for the Philippines’ proposal to submit the dispute at Scarborough Shoal to the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea (ITLOS).
The first interesting thing about the letter, to which I am a signatory, is that while supporting the Philippines, the letter stops short of taking sides on the question of sovereignty over the rocks at Scarborough Shoal. What it supports the Philippines on is the question of “sovereign rights,” which isn’t sovereignty over islands and rocks, but rights over the Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and continental shelf.
Does it make legal sense to support the Philippines on the question of rights over the EEZ and continental shelf without taking sides on the question of sovereignty over the rocks? Don’t the rights over the EEZ and continental shelf depend on sovereignty over territories, including islands and rocks? The answer lies in the fact that the rocks at Scarborough Shoal aren’t the only territories in this area; there’s also Luzon Island. It’s possible to argue that these rocks aren’t entitled to an EEZ beyond 12 nautical miles, therefore the EEZ in this area belongs to Luzon Island, regardless of whether the rocks belong to China or the Philippines, and regardless of the fact that they are disputed territory.
It’s evident that while both Vietnam and the Philippines feel most threatened by China’s “nine-dashed line,” those countries also feel that this line has a legal Achilles’ heel, which they seek to target with the concepts of UNCLOS such as EEZ, and of maritime delimitations, arguing that regardless of which country owns an island or rock, and of the fact that it might be disputed territory, the EEZ in certain areas belongs to larger landmasses.
The second interesting thing is that whoever drafted the letter chose not to use the conventional international name of “South China Sea.” Instead, they chose to use a combination of the Filipino and Vietnamese names, “West Philippine Sea/East Sea.” Are we about to see something similar to South Korea’s challenge to the conventional name “Sea of Japan”?
However, most interesting of all is the fact that this is the first time ever that members of the public in a country involved in the South China Sea disputes have expressed support for another in this way.
Still, perhaps this move shouldn’t come as a complete surprise given that in recent years most of the incidents in the South China Sea involve either China and Vietnam or China and the Philippines. With a common legal argument and facing a common, but much larger, opponent, there will likely be a tendency for the Vietnamese and the Filipinos to move towards a strategy of mutual support in the future.
Huy Duong contributes articles on the South China Sea to several news outlets including the BBC and Vietnam's online publication VietNamNet.
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Earl Barnett
I welcome the cooperation of the Philippines and Vietnam, I have lived in both countries, knew people in America from both and I like people from both. I love both countries and they do not deserve to be run over by the rogue Gvt. of China. I hope the nations of the free world will step up on this, forget the PC crap of our papers and bureaucrats and do something right for a change.
Major Lowen Gil Marquez, Phil Army
One simple world,Scarborough shoal was owned by the Philippine and it is inside the Philippine archipelago position north of western Philippine sea.
Observer
@ John Chan, scdad07, et al…
Still no logical response from my 4 main points of facts above? Yup, I did a double check and still nothing from all you guys and chinese posters. I wonder why.
opinion
China cites history as its basis for claiming Philippine territory as theirs. Supposedly, they have a two thousand year old Han Dynasty map that indicates the limits of the Chinese empire which included the Philippines.
If such a map does exist, the Chinese government should show it to the world and prove that it is genuine and show wordings or other persuasive evidence to the effect that indicate that the Philippines and its surrounding waters in the West Philippine Sea was part of the Han Dynasty empire. The age of the map should be subjected to carbon 14 testing to check if it is genuine.
Rational people in the world, who are aware of China’s oil grab intentions – are leery of China’s “historical” arguments. They doubt that a Han Dynasty map indicating ownership of Philippine and other countries’ territories actually exist but that more likely than not, its supposed existence is just being used as a convenient excuse to grab oil and marine resources that belong to the Philippines and other neighboring countries.
China did not have this heightened interest in Philippine waters until it was discovered that these areas contained a tremendous amount of oil. President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo and her husband gave China a carte blanche license to explore these areas in exchange for certain personal concessions. Okay, let’s call these kickbacks.
Conceivably, the Chinese government might be able to produce a map or two from the Han period but these may be nothing more than navigational maps. Ownership is a totally different thing.
Nowhere in the written or unwritten history of both China and the Philippines is there any indication that the Philippines was ever a province or a colony of China. There are factual indications that the Chinese have been visiting the Philippines since ancient times – but essentially to trade or in the case of Chinese pirates – to raid coastal villages.
For the sake of argument, let us assume that such a map exists. Let us even assume that the Chinese owned the Philippines and its surrounding waters during the Han Dynasty. Do these assumptions hypothetically mean that China still presently owns the Philippines or its surrounding waters?
When Magellan came to the Philippines and Spain took possession of the Philippines for almost 400 years, that meant that Spain certainly broke the continuity of any possible legal claim by China of ownership of the Philippines and its surrounding waters.
Nowhere was there any indication or protest from China that Spain was taking over their possession when the Spanish came to own the Philippines.
Then the Americans came and took ownership of the Philippines and its surrounding territorial waters when they defeated Spain in the Spanish-American war of 1898. In the Treaty of Paris of December 10, 1898, the United States paid Spain 20 million dollars for full ownership of the Philippines – lock, stock and barrel.
Again, there was not a single protest or claim from any Chinese government official or anyone for that matter that China had any rights to ownership of the Philippines and it’s surrounding waters.
On April 9, 1942, Japan took over ownership of the Philippines when American and Filipino forces surrendered in Bataan and Corregidor. No Chinese official ever said to Japan: “No, you can’t take over the Philippines because it is ours.”
On August 1, 1944, after being defeated by American forces, Japan surrendered the Philippines back to the United States – same story, no Chinese was claiming that the Japanese should have turned over the Philippines to China instead because of ownership issues.
On July 4, 1946, in the Treaty of Manila, the United States, grateful to Filipinos, for fighting side by side with Americans against the Japanese – ceded the Philippines back to Filipinos and the country became independent. As in previous situations, there was no indication from any Chinese official that the United States had no right to do this because China supposedly owned the Philippines and its surrounding waters.
Very clearly, China’s so called historical claim against the Philippines and its surrounding has no factual basis. Even from the point of view of geographical history – as far back as 50,000 years ago, the Scarborough Shoals and some of the Spratly Islands were already within 200 miles from the Philippines and some 600 miles from China. They have not physically moved nearer nor farther from both countries. They have always been so much nearer to the Philippines than China.
China is also claiming that Chinese fishermen have been fishing in waters surrounding the Philippines for ages and because of this history, these marine areas belong to them. But Filipinos have also been doing the same thing especially because these waters are very near the Philippines and hundreds of miles away from China.
Long before the Han Dynasty came into existence, the natives of the Philippines owned Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao and the waters around these islands. China’s “first in time” argument that they have a rightful claim because they owned the Philippines some two thousand years ago is hardly persuasive.
Anthropologist determined that the Philippines started to be populated some 50,000 years ago. It’s not clear where these first settlers came from but some of their descendants 30,000 years ago were the Aetas, who are still with us today and are small, dark skinned and have round eyes. They and their ancestors clearly did not come from China. They owned the Philippines thousands of years before any individual from China stepped foot on Philippine soil. So, enough of this foolish first in time arguments from China’s officials.
From any kind of perspective – historical, legal or geographical – China cannot support its ridiculous claim to any territory within a 200 mile radius from the Philippines baseline. As I have repeatedly previously pointed out, China’s claim is as absurd as the Italian government claiming that practically the whole of Europe, parts of Africa and Asia – belong to Italy because these were once part of the Roman empire. The reality is that governments and national boundaries change through time.
It should be clear to any rational mind that the Chinese government is simply resorting to manufacturing lame excuses to justify its attempt to grab the valuable marine and energy resources of the Philippines and neighboring countries.
Certainly, China’s government is also aware of the absurdity of their so called historical claim and that they are simply playing mind games with the Philippines and other neighboring countries – to find an excuse for their resource grabbing ways.
China’s consistent refusal to bring its claim to the United Nation’s International Tribunal on the Law of the Sea (ITLOS) by itself is a tacit admission that it cannot prove its so called historical claim before a proper neutral court. According to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), anything within a 200 mile radius from a country’s baseline is considered as within that country’s exclusive economic zone and belongs to that country.
However, China’s formidable military might is no match for the Philippines and other surrounding countries. Coercing and intimidating smaller countries with “might is right” arguments is the apparent course of action China has taken which can be its undoing in the long run.
Hitler’s Germany went along this direction using its military superiority to bully smaller countries like Austria, Poland, Hungary, Czecholovakia, Belgium, etc. Japan did the same thing. Both countries’ immoral policies caused so much suffering to other countries and to their own people in World War II which led to their eventual downfall.
In grabbing the resources of other nations by force, China is underestimating the force of moral authority. Other countries are not ignorant of the dishonest intimidation game that China is playing with its weaker neighbors and will seek to form formidable alliances for self defense strengthened by the righteousness of their cause.
If China engages in war, will the United States fight on the side of the Philippines?
Here’s my take on this:
Such a war will draw the United States and other nations against China. It will be obvious to the rest of the world that it is China who initiated this war. It would be a dangerous precedent to allow the hungry dragon to gobble up the oil and marine resources of smaller nations through bully tactics. This will encourage China to continue to repeatedly use similar tactics which threatens the security of other nations.
It is of significant note that Japan has offered patrol boats to the Philippines to protect Philippine waters against Chinese intrusion. This is obviously an overt expression of support from Japan.
South Korea and Australia have also indicated their willingness to supply the Philippines with certain military equipment.
Recently, a group of well respected academicians and intellectuals from Vietnam, one of them a former Ambassador – wrote
The Philippine Ambassador to Vietnam Jerril Galban Santos: “We fully support the sovereign rights of the Philippines in the Panatag Shoal area and the Philippines’ action to defend her sovereign rights.”
The thought expressed by these Vietnamese intellectuals reflect the attitude of the global community towards China’s gorilla policies. Most likely, many of China’s intellectuals abhor these self destructive policies. By using her military might to coerce neighbors in giving up possession of their resources, China’s government is creating enmity not only from without but also from within. China has many good people who recognize that their government’s immoral actions will cause the world to turn against them. Much dissension will increase from within if China continues on its erroneous ways.
As the leader of the world’s democratic countries, the United States cannot allow a communist country like China to overwhelm the Philippines by force. Moral imperatives and civilized behavior also compel other leading democracies to forbid China from using goliath tactics against a small democracy like the Philippines. Aside from those countries already mentioned, the United Kingdom, France, Italy, Canada, India and other U.S. allies will most likely also be involved against China if the U.S. gets into the fray.
Aside from its close historical ties with the Philippines which predisposes Americans coming to her aid in a war with China, the United States knows that American political and economic interests are also directly affected if China succeeds in forcibly taking over the Philippines and its resources. Being a former colony, the Philippines is its staunchest ally in Asia. It is also vital to American economic and military interests to keep the sea lanes in the area open and to have stability in the region.
There is an extraordinary reserve of goodwill and emotional ties between the American and Filipino people. Filipinos in general are also well liked the world over because of their gentle and smiling natures.
In case of attack by China, the United States is not only morally obligated to come to the aid of the Philippines in – it is also legally and politically obligated by formal treaty. U.S. officials including Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and U.S. Ambassador to the Philippines Harry Thomas – have repeatedly given assurances that the U.S.will be true to this commitment.
The recent statement from the U.S. that it will not take sides in the legal dispute over territory is compelled by diplomatic considerations as it is urging China to take this matter to the United Nations for resolution. This is not the same as saying that the U.S. will not come to the aid of the Philippines if China attacks.
China prefers a bilateral one on one resolution of its territorial dispute with the Philippines where it can easily bulldozed the smaller nation into submission rather than bring the issue before the United Nations where the issue can be multilaterally and fairly resolved by member nations. The Philippines cannot allow itself to fall prey to China’s mind games and agree to an unequal bilateral resolution where one party’s limited bargaining power results in a marriage where the stronger party calls all the shots.
On June 28, 2011, the US Senate unanimously passed a resolution condemning the increasing use of force by China against smaller nations in Southeast Asia and affirmed the use of U.S. military might should this become necessary.
The bottom line is that the U.S. and other nations will surely come to the aid of the Philippines if China resorts to war or military might to grab energy and marine resources.
If China is to gain the respect of the world, the Chinese government must act like a civilized nation and not like a brute whose main argument is the use of force. Perhaps China’s officials should reflect more on the teachings of its great humanist philosophers like Lao Tzu and Confucius who valued human rights and good relations with neighbors.
Linh My
opinion,
Thank you for a thoughtful and balanced post. Hopefully, the rants of the Chinese Sock Puppets here are being orchestrated as a bargaining tactic.
Cam
With this powerful and truthful argument here, if I were a Chinese blogger and had an iota of self-respect and self-esteem, I would find a hole on the ground, big enough to hide my shamefulness.
Fed up with Chinese Rhetorics
To all Chinese posters read up.
“The South China Sea in Southeast Asia is bordered by 7 countries: China, Taiwan, the Philippines, Brunei, Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam. The name of that water, like others such as Gulf of Mexico, Indian Ocean, Arabian Sea, Persian Gulf, Gulf of Thailand, Philippines Sea, East China Sea and Sea of Japan, do not imply any notion of sovereignty because they were invented for convenience by European explorers.”
“Countries that had historical border with the Arctic Ocean formed the Arctic Council to divide the Arctic natural resources according to the rules of UNCLOS. China never had any historical border with the Arctic Ocean, yet China asked to join the Arctic Council in order to have a share of Arctic natural rersources, arguing that the Arctic Ocean is a “common heritage for all of humankind”. If the Arctic Ocean is a “common heritage for all of humankind”, then the South China Sea is a common heritage for all the peoples who live on its shores, not only for China.”
” The Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia do not claim sovereignty over the South China Sea, the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean even though their Austronesian ancestors were the first to navigate those waters. Norway does not claim sovereignty over the Norwegian Sea even though the Norsemen (Vikings) were the first to navigate that water to populate Iceland and Greenland in the 9th century. Portugal does not claim sovereignty over the water off the West African coast, the water around the Cape of Good Hope and the Indian Ocean even though Portuguese under Bartolomeu Diaz and Vasco da Gama were the first to navigate those waters in 1488 and 1498. Spain does not claim sovereignty over the Atlantic Ocean, the Magellan Strait and the Pacific Ocean even though Spaniards under Christopher Columbus and Ferdinand Magellan were the first to navigate those waters in 1492 and 1521. Russia does not claim sovereignty over the Bering Sea even though Russians under Vitus Bering were the first to navigate that water in 1741.”
Chinese history lessons are convoluted.
Asif
It is extremely foolishness on Vietnamese as well as Philippines part to keep hostile relationship with China. They simply do not understand the future implications. US power is on the decline and may be in next 10 years, US will not be in the position to even stand against mighty PLA in south china sea.
It is better for countries in south china sea region to support China and be part of new Asian power based world order with China as center of gravity.
Pakistan fully support China for making this dream true. Pakistani politicians had realized the limitations of the engagement with US and had taken a right decisions to support China and start working on the plan to kick US and India out of Afghanistan. China and Pakistan can do the job better to keep Afghanistan safe and prosperous. Countries in South Asia must also understand the ground realities and be part of China Pak camp and help in keeping the West away from Asia.
Particularly, to India which lives in perception that it can stand against might of China on the basis of Western support. India is the most improvised, dirty and backward country in Asia and Indians only know how to make hollow claims.
Corby
UNLOS and ITLOS should be enough….not just a heresay blah2x from he who knows what dynasty that crappy claims comign from….not enough physical evidence.I will believe china if they are able to produce a deed of sale coming from Poseidon himself that they bought the scarborough and spratlys from him.hahahaha…
scdad07
According to the author, there are other 65 ‘PROMINENT’ people?
Anyone so far find the list?
Observer
From the article above, here is the list of people that support PH struggle against the cockroach invaders = http://www.manilatimes.net/index.php/news/top-stories/23361-vietnamese-intellectuals-back-ph-panatag-claim
This proves again that you and chinese are unable to read or comprehense anything logical. Suggest that you guys stay with your ccp masters propaganda.
John Chan
@Observer,
scdad07 was asking for information, it seems he has not seen it yet; logically speaking there is no logical possibility for him to comprehend something he hasn’t read yet. But you bashed “Chinese, not scdad07, are unable to read or comprehense (comprehend?) anything logical.” You have committed a fatal error in a debate by using ad hominem fallacy.
Please tell me what is your logic to make a conclusion from a single blogger’s question to become a 1.3 billion people’s handicap? And can you comprehense something you have not read yet? If you cannot, what is your logic for you to expect others can? American Exceptionalism from a wannbe?
Using accomplices to support a theft’s claim is perjury in law, and committing conflict of interest in morality. Your link proves you have committed both crimes.
Observer
@ scdad07 = 笨公鸡吸盘
你的母亲是妓女
Now are you going to debate with me about the points I posted about china and chinese or are you going to pull a china (running away with tail between legs), again, as usual :-)
scdad07
‘你的母亲是妓女 – Your mother is a prostitute’.
Prostitution in Philippines is booming and gets to be the number 1 destination in Asia. US state department published and retracted statement that over 60% of male tourist went to Philippines for the sole purpose to seek sex services.
Lingayen-Dqgupan Archbishop Emeritur Oscar Cruz said “..foreign military bases would create opportunities for numerous unemployed women to become sex workers.”
“Kapag may US military presence sa bansa tiyak na may prostitusyon. Hindi magkakahiwalay ang dalawang iyan,” Cruz told Church-run Radyo Veritas.
There was no such thing as ‘Philippines’ when the Dutch landed. Your talking points by del Rosario are indeed coward and empty words.
Cam
@scdado7,
You are probably not smart to keep talking about stuffs you don’t know about, even personal attack in Chinese really tell the reader here who you are really are, a low class Chinaman. Now talking about prostitution, don’t you know China exports an army of prostitutes to every corner of the world; even in Africa it is not hard to find a Chinese massage parlor. In China alone, there are 4 million Chinese hookers working 24 hours service and the chinese local government turns a blind eyes on them because they receive “protection” money as kickbacks. Here is a report on CNN about prostitution in China.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8FUebSkgJw
scdad07
Cam,
With your expertise, where can I find a hooker?
Pleas help all those who are interested.
Cam
LOL. with 4 million hookers in Beijing alone, I guess not to hard to find one, scdado7. Just get out of your house and use your fluent Chinese language to ask for one. Good luck.
John Chan
@Observer:
What’s the problem with you, mouthful of foul language all the time?
Prostitutes are a group of disadvantaged people in the society, they use a very an unfortunate way to make a living; don’t you have any sympathy for the unfairness treatment they received from the society? Where is your compassion, sense of human rights and justice? Is this the way of democratic societies in the Westpac, tramping on the vulnerable, the weak and the hapless to boast your ego? You seem telling a drastically different society from what the Westpac has been telling the world about their democratic societies, are saying the Westpac is not telling the truth all along?
Please take the democracy with you and go away, it is a hypocritical and heartless system, anybody with a sense of humanity will not want to associate with the Westpac democracy.
Observer
See my 4 points of facts above? Either you provide well know neutral sources to dispute them or go away and stop wasting my time. Don’t be like your ancestors, being slaves and prostitutes for Mongol, Britain, and Japan.
scdad07
China never surrendered to Japan during WW2, even the invasion/aggression was much earlier than 1937.
Japan attacked and controlled Philippines in about 5 months? Where was the resistance on the ‘Death March’?
Dutch, Spain, US, Japan and now. Who are you to serve next? Fact or more Facts.
Observer
Obsviously, you are not too bright so I will have to repeat to you, slowly.
Here is the list that I mentioned before but you were so clueless and pathetic, just like your ancestors.
Here are the facts:
1. It was china that attacked, captured, stole fishes, and then demanded ransom money from poor and unarmed fishermen like low class pirates.
2. It was china that attacked other neighbors in the East Sea. Not one else is behaving like bully china.
3. It was china that was so coward/yellow to do anything with big Russia about the land north of Amur river in which Russia slaughtered chinese like sheeps and took it. It was china that would not dare to take on Japan for what they did with chinese in WWII.
4. It was china that is behaving like clueless idiot – claiming the whole sea with pathetic excuses of “historic evidences”. No country on Earth is behaving that way. Why? Because no one could be that stupid.
Now provide us with well know neutral sources to dispute my statements or pull a china (running away with tail between legs – full of shame and humiliation), again.
scdad07
I conclude that you could not read nor understand my replies.
Mr. del Rosario will have to resign and claim retirement soon. IMO.
Observer
Nope, it was you that could not understand what I was trying to say.
In my very first post in this article, I used chinese words to make fun of John Chan. You jumped in and tried to be the hero. I replied with several facts to back up my statements. You replied with clueless statements.
Bottom line: you are clueless and pathetic. See how you could NOT even find the list of 65 people that support PH, even it was in the article. HUMILIATION and SHAME to you and ignorant chinese posters like you.
John Chan
@Observer,
All your points are your own opinions, they are your bigotry troll only, they cannot help Japan, Vietnam or Philippine to win anything. The only thing counts is what is going to happen in the South China Sea or to Diaoyu Islands. Your foul language and poor manner work negative against your presentation, it is very poor way to put forward your points.
Yes, when a nation is weak, its people suffered. But no nation can be on the top all the time, you are insulting dead people, it is really poor reflection on you and your nation, probably that’s way you never dare to show where you come from.
Being slaves and prostitutes under occupation happened to all nations including Japan, India, Vietnam and Philippines, Mongol, Britain, USA, … Your lack of sympathy to the victims under barbarism is rather shocking; it seems human beings has not changed much despite the advancements in democracy, and human rights the West proclaimed they brought to this world. Since you claim you represent the western democracies, it is sad and disappointing to see the ugliness behind their moral façade.
John Chan
@Observer,
What’s the problem with you, mouthful of foul language all the time?
Prostitutes are a group of disadvantaged people in the society, they use a very an unfortunate way to make a living; don’t you have any sympathy for the unfairness treatment they received from the society? Where is your compassion, sense of human rights and justice? Is this the way of democratic societies in the Westpac, tramping on the vulnerable, the weak and the hapless to boast your ego? You seem telling a drastically different society from what the Westpac has been telling the world about their democratic societies, are saying the Westpac is not telling the truth all along?
Please take the democracy with you and go away, it is a hypocritical and heartless system, anybody with a sense of humanity will not want to associate with the Westpac democracy.
Mick Ey
Divide and conquer – this is chinas strategy to secure the 9-dash line. This is why they focus on one country at a time so they can get their way with that country without stirring up the rest of ASEAN. China knows that as wealthy and mighty as they are, they still can be matched by a unified ASEAN. Much more if ASEAN is joined by Japan, Korea and Australia whos national interest is linked to the geopolitics of the region. This is why they are preventing the Phil from making this an international issue.
It is welcome news that affected nations are coming together albeit in form of private (non Govt) initiative. This is a good start for bigger things to come.
if ASEAN comes together – and i believe they will if china continues on their course – china will have no one else to blame but itself for being isolated and contained on this part of SE Asia. And remember India is aslo watching keenly on these events and how it will develop. Chinese belligerence is driving neighbor countries into each others arms.
Jack
The US will soon become signatory to the UNCLOS and the Laws of the Seas Doctrine. The US is a tremendous push mode to get it done asap. It will be interesting to see how this equation will change once that occurs. Stay tuned.
scdad07
I called on ‘the-Diplomat’ contributors to comment on UNCLOS and US’s decline to ratify.
In the past, ‘Self-Interests’ because of US military and commercial technological dominance were the no brainer to Ronald Reagan.
The world change and so is ‘climate’ though denied by ‘Neo-Con’ since Bush’s administration. Current Hillary is taking a different beat.
There was ‘Frank Ching’ who accused China on ‘using the law to her advantage’ and I always wonder who doesn’t.
Temujin
Vietnam gov. didn’t outright to declared fully support Philippines’s sovereigty over Scarborough Shoal because it want to avoid unneccessary conflict with these chinese but in the heart and soul of the Vietnamese are with the Filipinos. If there is a shoot out war between China and US, we all know which side both Filipinos and Vietnamese be. Through those small chinese eyes = full of greed.
scdad07
So, in your own words, Vietnamese shuts up because of ‘cowardice’. Is Huy Duong alone? He claimed 65 others.
Iamfree
As you can see asean is useless in this kind of dispute and many other aspect of cooperation between members, better to end this association..
Richard
ASEAN consists of 10 members,only Vietnam openly back the Philippines only because of its self-interest.
The Philippines can hardly expect any support from the other 8 mem,bers some of which do in fact have some similiar claims.
The actual hope for the Philippines is a declining USA with its current pivot Asia posture.
Jack
If you think the US is in decline keep you eyes open. The US is not going anywhere and will remain the pre-eminent power in the world. China will continue to rise, however that does not mean the US is going to fall by any means. Do some research and you will see what I mean.
Richard
Because of its global influence,US is now in decline compared to the triumph proclaimed by President Ronald Reagan and sole hegemonic power enjoyed by President G. Bush Junior.GDP wise US is in decline because China may have already taken over it as the biggest economic power of the world.But US will stay as the super power,not SOLE super power though.
I agree that US has quite a good system with its soft power and a relatively happier “upper” and “underclass”compared to China,but the biggest problem is that US is being managed by the America’s Capitalist Party(ACP) which have become almost indistinguishable from China’s Communist Party(CCP) ,They’ve used their power to give themselves absurdly high pay(Legalised corruption); they have no accountability to shareholders; and they’ve created a new caste, which is now exercising enormous political power.
ACP and CCP are both very worrisome.
US is lucky as both EU and China are having serious domestic problems compared to the relative political stability of US,but there is also no sign to show US is in the process of coming out from its own economic problems?
A decade of stalemate of the world perhaps?
The_Observer
Dilettantism on the part of these signatories to that letter is not going to change things one iota. Can’t see how this would ever become the Vietnamese Administration’s official position. After all that area of the S. China Sea (the official UN name for the sea) has overlapping claims between the Philippines and Vietnam themselves. Even if the Philippines and the Vietnamese were willing to divide up their claims they would still have to consider those of China’s and Taiwan’s for that part of the Spratleys.
Observer
@ John Chan – big bully china = 愚蠢的懦夫
John Chan
@Observer,
Insulting other bloggers baselessly in person, that is really idiotic and cowardice because you got nothing better to say.
I merely described Vietnamese motive of backing Philippines like “a cat is sadden by a dead mouse, its sympathy and sadness are fake, and the spoiled meal is what really concerns the cat.” Wanting Philippines to be a cannon fodder is why Vietnamese backs Philippines.
Foul language is the wrong way to use a language, not just the Chinese.
malampaya
@john chang,
Observer is right China is “BULLY” and “ABUSER”, the world kwows it.
Observer
@JC – just to show you and other chinese posters that I can read and write chinese too. Not fluency but enough.
What I said in chinese was true. Bully china is acting stupid because it is claiming something that was not theirs in the East Sea. Bully china is coward because it would not dare to take on Russia and take back the land that Russia took from china and slaughter chinese like sheeps.
The_Observer
@Observer
The S. China Sea is the official UN name of that sea. If Vietnam were to make a claim for any of the islands, reefs or atolls in that sea you have to put the correct name down on the submission.
Cam
China claims the entire SCS because of the word “China” in it.
What a pathetic claim for a country boasting of 5 thousand years of Civilization .
nobody
@John Chan
You present yourself as an intellectual and compassionate individual. But logical and courageous? I don’t think so. Instead of bashing out individuals who present facts, why not try to urge intellectual people like yourselves to use the power of internet in order to CLEAR the minds of your leaders.
No one wants conflicts but your leaders seem to… being greedy, meddling with other nations’ affairs like the US-Phil, Vietnam-India and Vietnam-Russia relations. Yes, your leaders can dictate to your people whose eyes are blindfolded and mouths are gagged, but not to the WORLD.
Chinese all over the world who are living in democracy should have ONE VOICE. How the world wish you as well as other Chinese be as courageous as Chen Guangcheng!
Observer
@ The_Observer,
I am not here to play syntax/word game. I am here to debate FACTS.
Here are the facts:
1. It was china that attacked, captured, stole fishes, and then demanded ransom money from poor and unarmed fishermen like low class pirates.
2. It was china that attacked other neighbors in the East Sea. Not one else is behaving like bully china.
3. It was china that was so coward/yellow to do anything with big Russia about the land north of Amur river in which Russia slaughtered chinese like sheeps and took it. It was china that would not dare to take on Japan for what they did with chinese in WWII.
4. It was china that is behaving like clueless idiot – claiming the whole sea with pathetic excuses of “historic evidences”. No country on Earth is behaving that way. Why? Because no one could be that stupid.
Those are facts.
scdad07
Wonder who in the Aquino administration or Del Rosario ordered Gregorio del Pilar to rush in, intimidate unarmed fishermen and attempt to arrest them? Top down or Bottom up?
Fact: US could not turn over (even) an old ship with any weapon. Good thing that the cannon was jammed when G.d.Pilar attempted to fire. Imagine how many sailors would have been killed.
John Chan
@Observer,
It seems your English has problem too, if you just want to smear China, then you should put your smear in a separate line, you should not link my name to it.
Are you saying Philippines and Vietnam are acting stupid too? Because they are claiming something that was not theirs in the South China Sea. At the same time it is really stupid to put Philippines and Vietnam in disadvantage by claiming something in a place that does not exist.
The dispute is between China and Philippine, and China between Vietnam, not anybody else; nobody can interfere these disputes, be it UN, USA, Russia, etc. Using ad hominem fallacy is not going win you any point in this debate or let Philippines and Vietnam steal China land successfully.
It is particular no bully and coward to beat Philippines and Vietnam because they always brag they are invincible and they taught lessons.
scdad07
@Observer – 愚蠢的懦夫!
Gregorio Del Pilar, named after the resistant hero in the Philippine-American war, attempted to fire a shot to stop the fishermen from leaving but the cannon jammed. No wonder it turned tail quickly. A 愚蠢的懦夫 act.
John Chan
Vietnamese Back Philippines = 猫哭老鼠, 假慈悲
Linh My
Oro Invictus
I find your comments thoughtful and reasonable. Despite what the “China Sock Puppets” say, this is basically an Asian issue pitting virtually every Asian Country from South Korea to Malaysia against China. The American role in this is minor and given the geographic realities of a rest of the Pacific Asian Countries war against China an utter disaster for China if war breaks out.
Oro Invictus
While it is good to see some measure of solidarity between the Philippines and Vietnam (even in a technically unofficial capacity) in regards to the SCS, unless they expand this dimension of their relationship beyond refuting the PRC’s claims long-term cooperation will remain problematic. Still, as I’ve suggested before, these troubling events in the SCS may be able to serve as a catalyst in the formation of a more cohesive and commonality-driven ASEAN; in the least, they should help provide a stronger bulwark against the PRC in the region, both providing a more fair playing field in future negotiations while also helping negate the risk of any one side deciding to attempt force to settle disputes (primarily, the concern is in regards to the PRC, though other players who feel frustrated could also serve to ignite such conflict).
The_Observer
The ASEAN members have yet to sort out their own overlapping claims to the Spratleys before even considering those of China’s or Taiwan’s. All the claimants have ports on some of the reefs and atolls (which are not neatly contained or separated) and the Philippines and Taiwan each have a base with a runway on a couple of the bigger “islands”.
Anonymous
There are problems resolving settling the Spratlys because China is rejecting any agreements the other claimants are pushing. No surprise because China is claiming everything in there. While the other nations are just more keen on not losing any more islands to Chinese aggression in the area. China wants to solve this problem bilaterally with each nation, with the backing of their massive military and economic powers.
nirvana
We should not underestimate the potential impact of such actions. This is to be compared with the apparently weak supports Vietnam got from the first lonely voices, especially those from the West, and even from the US, against the US government-led second Indochina War. We all know how these actions contributed to the outcome of that war. In a way, this is the Vietnamese (the citizens) turn to pay back their debt to the community of world citizens, by speaking their conscience. This is the Vietnamese way to “teach a lesson”, or rather, to show they have learned the lesson of their history.
Concerning names, yes “South China Sea” is the commonly accepted one, as “Scarborough Shoal” is, to designate the disputed rocks. This does not mean that China is not allowed to call them “Huangyan”. But calling these features “islands” shows either a lack of knowledge or an intention to mislead. And the Scarborough is not part of the Spratlys, scientifically speaking. Neither can they be amalgamated with other rocks and reefs in the SCS as various old Chinese names were interpreted as comprising the Scarborough.