An international consortium for the development of an advanced fighter aircraft? It sounds familiar – and the precedent isn’t encouraging.
The programme to build the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) involving the United States and eight other countries has become a cautionary tale over the complexity and runaway expense of developing a next-generation fighter aircraft, even with the economies of scale that multinational participants are meant to deliver and the unrivalled military-industrial resources that the JSF partners bring to the table.
Undeterred by the JSF’s difficult birth, Indonesia this week made its first concrete step into another joint project, led by South Korea, for the development of a new fighter jet. Defence Ministry Secretary Gen. Rear Marshal Erris Heriyanto confirmed on Monday that the Korean KFX programme – which Jakarta committed itself to in March – was moving forward. A team of 37 Indonesian engineers is set to leave for South Korea within a matter days, he said, to begin work on the concept definition phase, which is due for completion in 2012 to 2013.
Indonesia has agreed to meet 20 percent of the estimated $8 billion programme costs and to take 50 of the roughly 250 KFXs that are currently envisaged. Defence Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro reckons Indonesia will have its 50 planes by 2020. More partners may come on board – the Koreans are targeting Turkey in particular – and this could affect cost projections, timetables and production runs.
The question that aviation analysts have long been asking, however, is how exactly South Korea and its partners propose to develop a new aircraft so quickly and so cheaply, with the analogous JSF running several years late and its costs spiralling into the hundreds of billions. Part of the answer, as Purnomo laid out this week, is that the KFX will not be a 5th-generation aircraft on a par with the JSF, but more a kind of souped-up F-16. Obviously, that would be far less challenging to develop. Even so, the pieces of the puzzle don’t seem to fit together: the production run is too small; the participants’ expertise is too limited; and the case for developing a new 4.5-generation fighter, rather than simply buying a tried-and-tested jet from the United States or Russia, is unproven.
South Korea’s most impressive aircraft programme to date, the T-50 Golden Eagle multirole trainer, relied heavily on assistance from Lockheed Martin. It’s hard to see the KFX seeing the light of day without the same kind of US enablement – though with South Korea the best Asian prospect for JSF sales after Singapore and Japan it’s questionable whether the United States would be willing to take part.
So what is the logic that’s driving the programme? It could be that the Koreans think they have identified a gap in the market, perhaps opened by the JSF’s delays and prohibitive price tag, for an affordable 4.5-generation fighter, and that they believe, rightly or wrongly, that its development is feasible. Alternatively, as is probably the case with Japan’s next-generation fighter program, Seoul doesn’t really expect a production aircraft to be the project’s outcome, and is seeking merely to retain the semblance of an indigenous programme as it negotiates the procurement of new foreign aircraft.
Either way, Indonesia – so long as it isn’t seriously pinning its hopes on a plane that may never be built – stands to gain from the collaboration. A strategic partnership with South Korea makes a lot of sense, and Jakarta has already committed to buying the T-50 and other Korean equipment. But what Indonesia badly needs, if it is to realise its ambitions of fostering a modern and effective defence industry, is the foreign technology and expertise that Korea has to offer. That alone should justify the initial $150 million that Jakarta is releasing to the KFX effort, even if the Korean-Indonesian joint fighter never makes it off the drawing board.

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Koreansentry
Let us not forget John Chan here is Han Chinese trying to discredit joint Korean-Indonesian effort. Korean media and industry did not discredit French, Japanese and German technologies as Korea also learned from them. With S.Korea’s situation isn’t much different from China, as China is still behind developed countries in many key technological achievement. China’s high speed train was copied from Japan’s Shinkansen, China’s automobile was ripped from Korea’s Ssangyong assembly, China’s space & rocket tech were also copied from Russian, but Chinese claimed it was all indigenous inventions. Korea-Indonesia joint fighter program isn’t about developing 5th or 6th generation fighters, Korea is still committed to purchase F-35 or other 5th gen. fighters because KFX program only aims for 4.5th generation fighter class to replace their aging fighters. Within a decade, Korea will need to replace their F-16s fleet, China made their J-10 fighters and in service since 2005, it’s copied version of F-16s not very advanced fighter when you think F-16 have more armament & options than J-10 fighter. Korea could simply upgrade their existing F-16′s but cost of upgrade is enormous considering money can be use to develop existing T-50 program, what new KFX will bring is upgrading T-50 program to cheaper version of full option of F-15SE/Eurofighter, so that they can be mass produced which is more cost effective than keep buying up F-15SE & Eurofighter. Indonesia, Turkey, Philippine, Thailand etc.. all of them require to upgrade their aging fighters and they can’t access to F-35 program or Eurofighter program, so feasible option is to wait and buy lesser optioned F-35 or Eurofighter or buy cheap Russian or Chinese 5th gen. fighters, but everyone knows how sneaky Chinese & Russian are in exchanging military tech. Thus, having Korea leading the group by kick starting KFX program might give some alternative, and when Korea finally introduce fully working KFX fighter, they will be challenging Chinese and Russian arm market. And with profit from export could also fund Korea to develop 5th & 6th gen. fighters, and it will be UAV fighters. Chinese John Chan here doesn’t like Koreans all because China is insecure about their future.
a_canadian_observer
@Koreansentry: Bravo. You’re very humble and straight taking, unlike people such as John Chan, Frank. They consider themselves to be world class of a big country, yet dont act like one. Yo have represented you people well.
Adam
You said: “Indonesia, Turkey, Philippine, Thailand etc.. all of them require to upgrade their aging fighters and they can’t access to F-35 program or Eurofighter program….”
Firstly, Turkey is already a Level III member of the JSF program and has ordered 116 F-35.
Secondly, Eurofighter has been trying to convince Turkey to become a full technology partner in the Eurofighter Typhoon with full ToT.
Thirly, Turkey has 250+ Advanced F-16 (modernized under the CCIP program very recently or purchased new Advanced Block 50+).
ozivan
@Expert. Being a non-engineering person, I am impressed with your knowledge on Korea’s development of the advanced fighter aircraft.
I am also not surprised that Koreans are top achievers, as they had many firsts and/or largest eg in shipbuilding, automobiles, white goods, steel manufacturing, etc. Even a country like North Korea which many condemned as archaic can produce the nuclear bomb and ballistics missiles…the latest being predicted by CIA that in 5 years, NK can test IRBM missiles, though not as advanced types like those of the US…is something of an achievement. What more to say about modern industrialised South Korea..!!
Are you Korean ? If so, I would like to field a few non-technical questions to you which I have been curious. Would you oblige ?
Expert
John Chan
“UK”
Ok.
“Germany”
Ok.
“France”
Ok.
“Canada”
Not Ok. For civilian aviation yes. But not in military aviation.
“Japan”
Japan and Korea are roughly equal in military combat aircraft design skill at this time. It is no wonder both are shooting for similar spec combat aircraft around the same time in 2025.
“Brazil”
Not Ok. Refer to Canada
“Israel”
Not Ok. Israeli reps are in Seoul trying to negotiate a T/A-50 purchase right now.
To understand where Korea stands in terms of military aviation, ask which countries have designed indigenous military FBW control system and combat avionics. US, UK, France, Russia, China(with Israeli assistance), Japan, and Korea. That’s about it.
Raymond in DC
Israel today announced they’ve selected ITALY’s trainer jet over the South Korean T-50. South Korea is, understandably, upset. They really wanted this contract. I can’t speak to the technical merits of the two offerings, but if the decision was tinged by politics, Israel made a big mistake, and it could affect not just relations (otherwise very positive), but Korean purchases of Israeli military hardware like the Iron Dome. I would have thought Israel would make a more suitable partner to develop a next-gen fighter than Indonesia, but that won’t happen now, and Indonesia (a Muslim nation which has no diplomatic relations with Israel) would have raised a stink.
Expert
John Chan
“Korean Air Aerospace Division that is responsible Winglets, Raked wing tips, Fairings, and Flap support fairing; not fuselage.”
So you didn’t know that wing receives far greater stress(thus more challenging) than fuselage.
Anyhow, Koreans have far more experience with composite structure than Chinese do. Afterall, there is a carbon fiber bodied Korean supercar and a carbon fiber bodied bullet train HEMU-400X(The world’s one and only composite structure train), while no such comparable product exists in China.
John Chan
@Expert:
Yes, wings need to be strong and are high tech stuff, but not the parts the Korean responsible for, those are for aerodynamic purposes.
Skin for cars and bullet train is different category from skin for jet fighters, their properties requirements are different in day and night. The high strength synthetic material for F-35 and F-22 only can be produced by Japan, if Korean can produce it, it surely is news. I am not sure whether Japan will sell those high tech materials to Korea.
Anyhow it seems you have a lot confidence in your nation SK, I only wish SK to be successive. I have no interest to continue this thread with someone that is pseudo-expert. This article is about SK and not about China, You can brag a lot about your nation SK on the internet, but please do not bad mouth China in every opportunity due to ideological bigotry. Engineering is about real stuff, not is about hot air.
Expert
John Chan
“The high strength synthetic material for F-35 and F-22 only can be produced by Japan, if Korean can produce it, it surely is news.”
So you missed the news that Toray(The biggest carbon fiber manufacturer)’s carbon fiber production output in Korea is three times that of its output in Japan. Heck Toray just announced that they were going to double its production out in Korea, to the dismay of Japanese rightwingers who were accusing Toray of fleeing Japan at the most difficult time.
Toray’s justification for relocation is electricity; they were moving their production to Korea because of cheap Korean electricity, and the shortage of electricity in Japan following the Tsunami, which will last for years, only accelerated this relocation process.
“I am not sure whether Japan will sell those high tech materials to Korea.”
This shows how clueless you are.
a_canadian_observer
@Expert: Thank you for your insight, and I really admire your calmness and focus. This is the sign that John Chan has (ungraciously) lost the debate with you.
John Chan
@Expert:
UK, Germany, France, Canada, Japan, Brazil, Israel, etc. they are all ahead of SK in aerospace industry.
I though you are a blogger interested in good debate, actually you are another anti-China basher. Your expertise is as good as Robin Goldberg system experts.
Sibabalo
John, you question why the world needs a Korean fhgiter jet. That’s like asking why the world needs Chinese car companies. Right now, Chinese car companies are assembling and manufacturing other auto company designs and technology, but there will be a day when they may catch up and begin true innovation. Korea has already climbed this mountain in shipbuilding and consumer electronics and autos. Now they want to take the same steps in aerospace/defense and nuclear technology. What’s wrong with that?You cannot argue that only huge countries like China, India and the US are allowed to enter new industries due to large current or projected domestic demand. Besides, the combined population of Korea and Indonesia is pretty sizable.Also, there will be a demand for a cheaper jet plane, as not every military will want to carry only $150mm top of the line 5th gen fhgiters. So, a 4.5 gen fhgiter could fill a market need.
John Lee
Expert thank you for the insight.
John Chan seems to think highly of China’s aerospace industry since he’s Chinese but Chinese aviation is based on copied Russian technology. Heck, even Russia stopped exporting its SU’s to China because of the outright copying. Why would Korea get in bed with them? China is not a nation that honors agreements.
Frank
If you listen to Americans, China’s aviation industry is based on copied American technology.
Israel, French, Italy, Germany, England, Spain and Ukraine all claims China “copied” their aviation technology.
So to say that China’s aviation is based Russian technology is incorrect.
Chinese are good students. They learn from other people quickly and eventually, beat them in their own games.
If you read China’s history, you will know that China had done so for 5,000 years. That is THE reason that China is the longest lasting nation on earth.
Expert
KFX is not actually that cheap; it is expected to cost $5 billion for R&D + $80 million/unit to produce on a volume run of 300.
There are a number of differences that allows Koreans to keep their cost down and on projection.
1. Different definition for “development” : In JSF program, a lot of technology used in JSF are developed alongside the airframe, and the delay/failure of any single new technology delays the whole program, which raises the cost. In KFX, no new technology is being developed; all technology to be integrated into KFX are developed and tested separately before the start of project, and the “R&D” is merely an integration process of all the acquired/prepared technologies. This is why KFX development schedule looks so quick and cheap compared to the JSF program.
2. Keep the requirement down : KFX requirement calls for a supercruising A2A fighter and that’s all.(Strike will be carried out by a companion unmanned drone) The requirement doesn’t call for KFX to land on a carrier or land vertically. JSF is a complete mess because of a large number of requirements on it, not because Lockheed Martin’s incompetent. Ask how much another Lockheed Martin product, RQ-170, cost to develop and the answer is not a lot. Why? because RQ-170 serves a specific role and is not asked to be the jack of all trades.
3. Korea has actually built a 4.5 gen fighter before : Korea has actually developed a 4.5 gen fighter before, but not as a single product. Locally engineered airframe and FBW was implemented on F/A-50, while the local avionics and electronics are being implemented on the F-16 Block 52 mid-life upgrade program that the airforce operates. So yes, Korea’s 4.5 fighter was developed before, not as one product but as pieces of two product.
4. Boeing is desperate for work : While Lockheed Martin opposes KFX project, Boeing has repeatedly confirmed its intention to join in KFX project as the foreign partner to fill in 15% or so of the missing technology needed of a 5th gen fighter, because Boeing needs work to keep its fighter division in business until the F-22 and Super Hornet replacements enter service by 2030 and 2025 respectively.
Then why is Korea trying to develop KFX? There are two reasons for it. One is maintenance cost. A locally developed fighter is far cheaper to maintain than an imported fighter, and this, not the procurement cost, was the primary argument for the KFX program, because F-35 maintenance is cost-prohibitive. Second reason is that there is no existing fighter design that could meet KFX’s requirement even after modifications, which was calling for a supercruising A2A fighter with 0.01 m^2 RCS or less. KFX’s A2A performance is the reason for Indonesian and Turkish interests, as they both need air defense fighters.
John Chan
Maybe Korea wants to use KFX program to keep its aerospace industry alive. Even the Europeans need to pool their resources together to develop and build a 4.5-generation jet fighter, it is doubtful that SK could master such resources to develop and build it own 4.5-generation jet fighter.
If KFX is going to be built based on the existing technologies, surely SK can shorten the timeframe, but whether KFX can be built with lower cost is questionable, for example Japanese F-2 is double the cost of F-16; and all suppliers of KFX need to recover their development costs plus profits.
Supercruising and stealth technologies have to come from the US, USA might let SK use those technologies, but reselling those technologies to 3rd party surely needs a lot wishful thinking. Super configuration and aerodynamic designs are needed to make KFX perform better than F-35, SK surely has a lot confidence in themselves.
One way SK can cut cost and improve performance of KFX is to get the Chinese to do the testing and building the composite fuselage for the KFX. Of course SK has to do some work to convince Chinese to take on the works of them.
Expert
John Chen
“Maybe Korea wants to use KFX program to keep its aerospace industry alive.”
There are other projects for aerospace jobs, like the 100-passenger regional jet(made possible by booming regional travel in East Asia).
“but whether KFX can be built with lower cost is questionable”
This is not about lower acquistion cost; this is all about lower maintenance & operating cost.
F-35 will cost $382 billion to develop and acquire, but a trillion dollars to maintain over 30 years according to the latest US DoD estimates, subject to possible additional increases. Foreign F-35 operators face an even higher operating cost because of logistics and the requirement that FMS F-35s be maintained at US-designated regional service centers; one in Italy, and another one in Japan. KFX on the other hand will be maintained locally with locally supplied parts by local technicians.
“Supercruising and stealth technologies have to come from the US”
No.
Supercruise-capable engines are available off the shelf. The problem is that you cannot supercruise with these off the shelf engines if your airframe is F-22 sized. However, you can supercruise with off the shelf engines if your airframe is roughly Eurofighter/Hornet sized. The difference between American and Korean approach is that Americans go build a totally new engine at a great expense if the current airframe cannot supercruise with the current engine, while Koreans design the airframe around the available off the shelf supercruise-capable engines.
Plans call for KFX to be equipped with either F414-EPE or EJ200, so that KFX could be exported to countries that could not obtain US export approval. Basically, customers could choose whether they want EPE or EJ200 for their KFX.
As for stealth, local 3rd gen RAM features -31 dB absorption rate, basically an F-22 class RAM.
“One way SK can cut cost and improve performance of KFX is to get the Chinese to do the testing and building the composite fuselage for the KFX.”
Why? Koreans have more experience with composite fuselage structure than Chinese do(Supplies Boeing 787 structure). Heck, even their latest bullet train features composite structure.
John Chan
@Expert:
I just made my comment in according to common sense of an ordinary blogger. I reckoned SK would have trouble building KFX because there are so many nations they are well ahead of SK in technology, and they have trouble building a jet fighter like KFX, stealth and Supercruising.
I am glad SK is full of confidence to build a plane that can match F-35 and F-22 with talent and ingenuity. I hope SK could make it, by the day KFX rollout, we can tell USA how incompetent they are comparing with SK.
On the other hand, SK can build stealth and supercruising jet fighter with ease, then what is the big deal of J-20, why did the US sound the “China Threat” again when China tested J-20? It was really puzzling.
Expert
John Chen
“I just made my comment in according to common sense of an ordinary blogger.”
So you don’t know much about these stuff. That’s ok, you can always learn something new everyday.
“building KFX because there are so many nations they are well ahead of SK in technology”
Care to name them? The list won’t be long and China certainly won’t be in it. So if Chinese could put together a stealth fighter with Russian “consultation”, why can Koreans not?
“a jet fighter like KFX, stealth and Supercruising.”
KFX isn’t the only Korean stealth aircraft. This is actually one of two scheduled. The second is an unmanned combat drone whose demonstrator will make its maiden flight in 2014, and enter service in 2030(Takes longer because of AI engineering even if the airframe development starts first). Manned KFX will be responsible for A2A role, while the unmanned companion combat drone will assume all A2G strike(bombing) roles. Both will be of stealth design.
Supercruise isn’t some kind of “out-of-this-world” technology, since the Concord was doing it from the 70s. It is simply a combination of a low-drag airframe and a jet engine with low-bypass ratio. Many aircraft did supercruise before as far back as the late 60s.
“we can tell USA how incompetent they are comparing with SK.”
The US plans to introduce 6th gen fighters from 2025, with US Navy’s F/A-XX(2025) for the Navy and the USAF’s F-22 replacement TACAIR(2030).
So the US stays one step ahead of everyone else.
“then what is the big deal of J-20, why did the US sound the “China Threat” again when China tested J-20? It was really puzzling.”
To get more money. It’s hard to get more money from the Congress for new military hardware when there is no visible threat.
John Chan
@Expert:
I just checked Boeing 787 suppliers; there is only one Korean supplier, Korean Air Aerospace Division that is responsible Winglets, Raked wing tips, Fairings, and Flap support fairing; not fuselage. Two Chinese suppliers seem to responsible more important parts.
Nick
John, you question why the world needs a Korean fighter jet. That’s like asking why the world needs Chinese car companies. Right now, Chinese car companies are assembling and manufacturing other auto company designs and technology, but there will be a day when they may catch up and begin true innovation. Korea has already climbed this mountain in shipbuilding and consumer electronics and autos. Now they want to take the same steps in aerospace/defense and nuclear technology. What’s wrong with that?
You cannot argue that only huge countries like China, India and the US are allowed to enter new industries due to large current or projected domestic demand. Besides, the combined population of Korea and Indonesia is pretty sizable.
Also, there will be a demand for a cheaper jet plane, as not every military will want to carry only $150mm top of the line 5th gen fighters. So, a 4.5 gen fighter could fill a market need.
Severin Pleyer
Hello Trevor,
thank you for your insightful Article. While that is so I would like to offer a crtical answer.
As this is already your second article which slams non- american fighter programs you always assume that they are bound to fail.
The reality is that South Korea is also starting a space program, and a fighter program after the advanced trainer T-50 proves, that it is more than capable of doing so. With the help of Lockheed Martin maybe but it was mostly about technology transfer which is now completed.
For me it is obvious that South Korea wants to become more independent of American products. For example as US congress wouldn t allow the export of F22s to anyone not even the closest allies like Australia or Japan. Especially also since the last planes the South Koreans bought were upgraded F-15Es which are already more than 20 years old. Given with upgraded Avionics and Aesa radars but in their performance nothing new.
In so far I would not discredit the KFX as, especially if Turkey gets on board, three powerful economic power houses are behind this product. Turkey will buy the JSF but its policy so far has always been to have more than one type of aircraft in its inventory.
The KFX will be definitly worth a closer look, as American export planes do not interest anybody at the moment as seen in the competition in India.
John Chan
@Severin Pleyer:
Do you think technology transfer can make a nation technology independence? It seems you do not know much about industry. Building T-50 means SK can be independent of US for jet fighter, you must be joking.
A nation needs mammoth industrial and R&D bases to support an indigenous jet fighter maker. SK only can be in a league to assemble jet fighter, not in the league to have indigenous jet fighter.
Brad
John, you seem to be quite agressive in your posts these days. How does Israel fit into your above hypothesis?
John Chan
@Brad:
If the world is still in the piston engine era, I will say Israel may have a chance to build an indigenous fighter. That’s why Israel focuses on low capital high intelligence value added products nowadays.
On the other I might be wrong if you believe what Expert has said, then the question is why didn’t Israel do what SK is going to do and build their own 5th generation jet fighter? Is Israel not as good as SK?
Expert
John Chan
“why didn’t Israel do what SK is going to do and build their own 5th generation jet fighter? Is Israel not as good as SK?”
Israel had no money to fund one, and Israel’s manufacturing industrial base isn’t exactly world class. Israel’s Lavi project was funded by the US Congress(Just like the present day Israeli purchase of F-35), and Lavi died when the US Congress cut the funding.
Automobile manufacturing is a good indicator of a country’s manufacturing industry’s maturity and strength. There are only three countries whose local industries could produce cars good enough to be exported to the US; Germany, Japan, and Korea. French couldn’t compete in the US and left, neither could Italians with the exception of exotic cars selling a few hundreds per year.
So can Korea produce a locally engineered 5th gen fighter? Yes, because Korea has a local world-class industrial base strong enough to produce one.
John Chan
John Chan
> A nation needs mammoth industrial and R&D bases to support an indigenous jet fighter maker.
Which Korea has.
> SK only can be in a league to assemble jet fighter, not in the league to have indigenous jet fighter.
This is a strange comment. After all, most of Korean product including cars and bullet trains are of local design, while China pirate other country’s product, including jet fighters(J-10(IAI Lavi), J-11(Su-30MK), and J-15(Su-33)). Even the fabled J-20 is not a pure Chinese design as it is based on old MIG-1.44 with MIG’s engineering consultations.
John Chan
We have a strange phenomenon here, when SK started their proud automobile industry based on Japnese components and technology, as well as their bullet train to be based on Alstom’s TGV Réseau. SK claimed all of them are invented by themselves and indigenous. While everything China and other nations like Israel make, those products are copies, pirated, etc.
One more strange phenomemon, when the products that SK does not have capability to make, they bad mouth other nations that can make them with fabricated facts.
About Hyundai cars, we knew a lot about their Pony, Sonata, etc. they were just junk. Someone just got ride of an one year old Santa Fe at a cost of 15,000. Surely it was an expensive to know SK cars.
It seems SK has learnt a lot from a nation of “honey words and pious gesture.”
Expert
John Chen
“We have a strange phenomenon here, when SK started their proud automobile industry based on Japnese components and technology”
That was 30 years ago. I will give a hint. When Tsunami hit Japan four months ago, all the Japanese auto plants and a large number of GM and Ford plants also shut down due to lack of parts because Japanese auto parts suppliers were affected by the quake and tsunami. Even the Japanese plants in China were affected by this and Chinese auto market volume went down because of Japanese automakers shutting production line down.
But Korean auto plants kept producing and ate the market share void left by Japanese shutdown. Why? Because Korean cars didn’t use hardly any imported parts; all the supply chain is now local.
“as well as their bullet train to be based on Alstom’s TGV Réseau.”
KTX-II is not based on TGV Reseau; it actually resembles TGV POS but it can’t be a copied model because Alstom never transfered TGV POS tech to Koreans and TGV POS and KTX-II were completed around the same time, so the visual resemblence is the accidental result of same French styling contractor working on both TGV POS and KTX-II. Mechanically two are unrelated. Even the lawsuit-happy Alstom acknowledged as such.
On the other hand, Alstom CEO blasted China for unauthorized misuse of train tech transferred to China and called for a world-wide ban of Chinese train export utilizing misused Alstom tech.
So why is everyone blasting China for piracy while being silent on Koreans? Because of differences in ways Chinese and Koreans use the transferred tech. Chinese produce a straight replica of transferred product, while Koreans recreate their own product based on the experiences of working on transferred tech. Chinese product gets flagged for piracy, while Korean product goes free.
“SK claimed all of them are invented by themselves and indigenous.”
Not at all. Koreans acknowledge foreign IP as foreign, while local IP as local.
“While everything China and other nations like Israel make, those products are copies, pirated, etc.”
I don’t know about Israel(Israel did back in the 70s), but China does have a world-famous reputation for industrial piracy ranging from cell phones all the way up to jet fighters and space ships.
“About Hyundai cars, we knew a lot about their Pony, Sonata, etc. they were just junk.”
You must have been in cave for the past 10 years or something, because 2011 Hyundai Elantra was crowned the king of compacts by a round of automobile magazine comparison tests and actually beat brand new 2012 Honda Civic, and outsells Civic in the US. Hyundai-Kia now outsells Honda and Nissan in the US in monthly sales volume, and is within hundreds of Toyota’s monthly sales number in the US at the moment.