Last month, when newly-elected Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda, stated that Japanese-Chinese ties should become ‘win-win’ relations, he expressed his strong intention to improve the countries’ bilateral ties.
Since the ugly conflicts over the Senkaku Islands last September, Tokyo-Beijing relations have remained strained. The Japanese, however, were heartened by China’s swift offer in March to help those displaced by the huge earthquake and tsunami, as well as by Premier Wen Jiabao’s visit to the devastated site. Still, according to a recent joint survey by Genron NPO and China Daily, the percentage of Japanese who feel unfavourably toward China has increased from 72 percent in 2010 to 80 percent in 2011.
What factors are hindering the improvement of bilateral ties? Many Japanese were dismayed by the Chinese government’s reaction to the Senkaku incident. It claimed, falsely, that its fishing vessel had been struck by the Japan Coast Guard vessel, when in fact the reverse was the case, as videotapes leaked on the Internet clearly showed.
Many Japanese felt betrayed by China. Although Beijing had talked about building ‘strategically mutual relations,’ Beijing seemed to go back on its word when it suddenly suspended its exports of rare earths, a strategically vital material, to Japan. This was apparently a way to secure the immediate release of the Chinese fishermen taken into custody by the Japan Coast Guard. In addition, to achieve the same purpose, approximately 10,000 Chinese ‘voluntarily’ cancelled planned vacation trips to Japan. These events have helped spur Japanese mistrust of China.
China’s military, particularly naval, expansion also worries Japan and its like-minded partners such as the United States, Australia, and ASEAN countries. The People’s Liberation Army Navy now has a noticeable presence in the East China Sea, sailing through Japan’s southeast islands in the Pacific and conducting exercises near Japanese territorial waters and near Guam. The Chinese fleet in the South China Sea, meanwhile, already has had skirmishes with the fishing and naval vessels of those ASEAN nations with claims to small islands there.
The prevailing view in Japan, and the region, is that China has begun to flex its muscles unnecessarily. China seems to be trying to control the Western Pacific on its own terms, rather than trying to build mutually respectful relations through diplomatic channels. China’s first, refurbished, Soviet-made aircraft carrier, which was tested in August, reportedly will be followed by more Chinese-made carriers over the next 10 years or so.
Another source of Japan’s mistrust of China is China’s lack of military transparency. Can the Noda government have ‘win-win’ relations with such an opaque and hegemonic China? Noda’s outlook on Japan’s defence is conservative but reasonable. In an article in the October issue of the monthly magazine Voice, Noda stresses the importance of the Japanese people’s defence of their own nation, as well as the alliance with the United States.
Unlike former Prime Minister Hatoyama Yukio, who was in office for less than a year, Noda places low priority on building an East Asian community. Rather, his concern is protecting Japan’s territorial integrity. In order to limit China’s military activities in the East China Sea, Japan finds it strategically important to seek a stronger alliance with the United States. Indeed, one of the positive outcomes of the earthquake and tsunami in March was that it brought together the Japanese and US armed forces, which worked together to clean up the devastation and, in the process, strengthened their alliance.
Many Chinese may also assume that Noda will visit Japan’s Yasukuni Shrine, where 14 wartime leaders sentenced by the international military tribunal as war criminals, are enshrined. Visiting the shrine has been a source of severe tension between the two countries. But Noda has already indicated that he won’t visit the shrine.
Thus, whether Japan can improve ties with China depends mainly on China. We should remember our joint communiqué of 1972, which urged us—among others—to respect the principle of non-interference in our relations. Unfortunately, China has consistently violated this principle by dictating how Japan should honour its war dead and how its school textbooks should teach history.
Such matters are Japan’s internal affairs. ‘Win-win’ relations between Japan and China can only be achieved only when our nations truly respect each other.

klee
The author of this main article is probably Japanese descent with biased views. I don’t blame him, it is natural.
Let cut down all the unnecessary arguments and the bottom line is there will have no genuine relationship between China & Japan before the diaoyutai/Senkaku islands issue is resolved. And I predict that China will resolve this issue at the time when they are about to take back Taiwan militarily or otherwise. You see, these islands are closer to Taiwan than to Japanese mainland. It is hard to believe that they won’t do anything about it at the same time. But, of course, nobody knows when this will happen.
Leonard R.
China and Japan could be a very formidable force in the world. Their strengths compliment each other.
But the CCP needs a ‘foreign devil’ to mask its own deficiencies. Japan is a safe foreign devil right now.
If relations grew more friendly, what nation would become the CCP’s foreign devil du jour?
China is learning it is very dangerous to demonize America.
Frank
You are right about demonize USA. China needs Americans to work hard to pay back the money they owe.
Just like Americans, we all need foreign devil du jour.
I would suggest Indians as the next best foreign devil.
Frank
In a letter, Consul General Ye Mint Aung said that Indian people “have brown skin and are as ugly as ogres”.
Would not those who look like ogres best suited to be foreign devils?
SCdad07
Boycott japanese products.
Action is louder than words.
Cam
You are a lone voice. Funny enough, Chinese are crazy about Japanese products.
Frank
Japan should be afraid. It has bad relation with Russia in the north, Korea in the middle and China in the south. All of them have nukes.
Liberty
Rearm is the best way for Japan in dealing with an aggressive ambitious China! There wll be no win-win solution here!China’s explicit goal is dominate the whole western Pacific for its global hegemonic end! That’s it!
Grant
I have to note that China has a vested interest in how Japan considers its history and war dead, specifically China* has an interest in whether Japan remembers the wartime atrocities and imperialism only ended in 1945. To be sure there is a nationalist element where the CCP discourages internal dissent by presenting a bogeyman of what might happen with a weak government, they also have some justification. While I argue against many Chinese policies I must give some support to this one.
However I will note that both Japan and China have good reasons to be suspicious of one another. Japan is home to a significant U.S military presence and is geographically situated to hinder the movements of China’s military. China is increasing it’s naval power, is one of the few states that could seriously threaten Japan and has grown more aggressive lately.
Ironically if Japan were more powerful this state of affairs might be avoided. A more powerful Japan might have less to fear from China and less reason to rely on the U.S military. Of course the opposite is also possible, a more powerful Japan might increase Chinese fears and ratchet up tensions.
*As well as the Korea’s and much of East Asia.
Yang zi
Under the overwhelming power of US (atomic bombs), Japan remade itself, but it never completely come clean with its past behavior. It is biding its time.
There is still chance for China and Japan be good friends. Both should learn from German and France.
Watcher
On this point I can agree with you!
Grant
It took centuries of rivalry, two World Wars, a Cold War, the collapse of the Soviet Union, a peaceful Europe and the democratic reunion of the two Germany’s before France and Germany could get along well. I don’t think we want to have to go through the same process for China and Japan.
davida
this article fails to address two key issues that have been pestering sino-japan relationship over years, thus rendering it nothing but a waste of time. first one: the understanding and interpretation of history that is mutually supported and recognised; another one-correct positioning of itself.
the author puts the onus of improving ties on china, which is laughable and absurd. china is not the only country taking issues with japan about honoring those war criminals in this notorous shrine. a lot of countries do. and he lables china’s expression of indignation over it as interference of japanese internal affairs. then what about japanes outcry of ” china threat” every time china increases its military budget. what does he brand this outlandish ” poke you in the eyes when you smile” behavor?
furthermore, china is not only country japan enjoys territorial dispute with, which, when it occured last year, japanese kind of sobbed like a little sis and ran to the principle’s office( usa) to report the abuse. in all fairness, japan is not china’s sole dancing partner in this endless” bickering and posturing over islands” saga either. but why didn’t japan do the same or usa, the protector of peace, behave in similar fassion when south koreans or russians kick them in the nuts?
like i said, its japan’s ” superior to other asian races and bending over before white masters” paradoxical mentalities that make the warmer ties with any asin nations impossible. take the shrine issue for example, if japanese sincerely want to commemorate and hornor their dead in wars, the best thing would be for them to evict the forces that had dropped a-bombs on them, justified or not. instead, they welcome them with open arms just to save some bucks and appear tough in front of china.
Japan’s obssession with china, and only china, with respect to history and their positioning strategy, in my humble opinion are the biggest obstacles to improvement of bi-lateral relationship. not other way around, as the author suggests.
FrankDiv
“japan’s ” superior to other asian races and bending over before white masters” paradoxical mentalities that make the warmer ties with any asin nations impossible”- well articulated Davida. The main reason the Japanese have been in depression for the past 2 decades. The US is tempted to allow Japan to have nuclear arms as a check on China, but then maybe not, as Japan might just have the capacity to exact revenge on them sometime in the geopolitical future.
yang zi
China want to have a good relationship with Japan, but it will not sacrifice its national interest, give up its Diaoyu island.
Japan is doomed, in a sense to be a normal country. it will be occupied by US forever, never going to have an independent foreign policy. However, it is trying to leverage US concerns about China, expand its military activities with other countries.
Japan is already winning in the relationship with China. its trade with China is the biggest and the surplus supports Japanese economy.
Mark Murata
If you want to know the real reason why we had that ridiculous Senkaku incident, read this (you need to start from the chronological beginning in order for it to make sense)…
http://chroniclesoftheendofhistory.blogspot.com/search/label/Seikei%20Bunri
John Chan
@Mark Murata,
Regardless how Japanese twisted Diaoyu/Senkaku island incident, Japanese cannot deny the fact that it was that the big armed JCG warships were harassing a tiny harmless and helpless Chinese finishing boat, then Japanese kidnapped Chinese fishermen for Japanese internal political purposes, such action is shameful.
ozivan
@Mark Murata. Don’t forget to include that Japan has unresolved disputes with South Korea over the Dokdo/Takeshima islands and with Russia over the Kurile Islands.
Mishmael
Its rather inappropriate to characterize the Japanese people as “vicious,” but I too believe the author is deliberately painting a skewed picture of Japan.
Firsto of all, as previous posters have alluded to, the Japanese people are not innocent, historically inoffensive actors. The legacy of death and suffering that is synnonymous with Japanese imperialism is a permanent fixture in the policits of East Asia, and pretending otherwise is deeply insulting to its victims.
Secondly, the Japanese should realize that whatever the future arraingement in East Asia turns out to be, their country will not have as great a say as it does now. The fact is that Japan could never have maintained its geopolitical oreceonomic supremacy given the pace of Chinese development, and refusing to acknowledge Chinese interests is laughably naieve. Japan is a nation in decline, and everyone knows it. The only reason China would ever give way to Chinese interests is if Japan demonstrates an awareness of this fact.
Finally, while Japan`s foreign relations have the luxury of being sheltered by the American behemoth, China is a nation on its own. The rosy vision of an East Asia founded on peace and economics may even be a sincere one, but it cannot happen given the gross imbalance in American assurances acceeded to China and Japan. The fact is that modern China and Japan are divided by international, as well as regional rivalries. I would state here that much more should be done in both countries to encourage interpersonal ties between the two, if only to combat the mindless hatred so deplorably common nowadays, but I do not believe it is necessary for China to bow to Japan at all in order to secure peace for itself.
klee
China should never forget what Japanese soldiers did to Chinese in Nanking during WWII. They killed more than 350,000 Chinese there. Japanese are as vicious and cunning as Japanese government. Japan quietly built two so-called helicopter carriers (because under post war constitution laws, Japan cannot build aircraft carriers), but independent British organization recently has already classified them that they are indeed aircraft carriers. Japanese are going to build the 3rd one of about 22,000 ton ship again. They knew in the near future they are going to equip with F-35 which can take-off and land on carriers vertically without long runway, so big carrier decks are not necessary. So those three so-called helicopter carrier will instantly become attack aircraft carriers with F-35 assault groups. China still doesn’t have an operational carrier yet.
Japanese are historically hegemonic people thinking they are higher up in Asia and should conquer China. In their school history books, they tell Japanese children that they were the victims in WWII, but in fact they were the evil empire.
China should keep the pressure on Japan which still refuse to acknowledge their world crime, not like Germany which has done a lot of good things towards Israel.
China should keep catch up militarily with US which Japan is hiding behind. So that, Chinese ensure there are no more attack by Japanese again, militarily and economically.
Cam
@klee,
Your comment spells out something true about the Japanese in the past. What I believe, militarily they build up now is a response to the Chinese bullying recently. Not only the Japanese, the SKoreans, the Mongolians, the Vietnamese, the Filipinos, the Singaporeans, the Malaysians and Indonesians are also doing the same. Chinese thuggy behaviors scare them to death so it is better prepared, you know.
Oh, last time I checked, China is still a recipient from Japanese aid.
yang zi
the Japanese aid is a small portion of the compensation for its invasion of China. China waived war compensation after the war. It is like I forgive your $100 debt to me, you pay me $1 for the forgiveness. Japan killed a lot of you people, you should know.
Japanese over pursued Chinese fishing boat and got damaged, it should blame itself for bullying.
Wait for Japan to come to China when US changes its attitude. Japan follows what US do, no exceptions.
shen liang
@yang zi
You’re right as far as the horrors of what the Japanese military did, but your numbers are off considerably. The Germans paid $20 billion to ALL of the Allied nations after WWII. The Japanese have provided China alone with $50 billion in developmental aid. We should never forget what happened, but we should recognize the people helping us are not to blame for what happened previously.
China gets a lot of money from a lot of nations, including the “Westpac” that John Chan rants about. It’s about time we all recognized just how much. The first time I saw this I was sincerely shocked: almost 300 pages of developmental projects being paid for or carried out by foreigners for the people of China. Ridiculous and humbling.
http://www.aiddata.org/search/results?recipients=49&keywordSearch=
yang liang
shen liang, just like Frank said, those are loans. also, you can compare German’s money, did you calculate the inflation. besides, how much Japan took from China since late 1800s? how much damage, how many Chinese people killed by Japanese? Has Japan show any remorse?
It is not justified to blame current Americans for slavery, but you have to first admit slavery is wrong. What do you think of the idea of changing US text books, to describe slavery as merely hiring domestic workers and providing employment to blacks?
John Chan
@shen liang,
In according to aiddata.org, the total amount of aggregate flows from 1980 to 2008 is 39.6 billions in 38 years. It is far cry from your inflated number of 50 billions, not even 1 billion a year in average. Yet Japan paid 5 billion to USA for hosting USA troops in Japan. It seems Japan is the one can’t distinguish right or wrong.
I just wondered why did Japan start to be generous when China’s economy started to take off, and there was a lot money to be made in China? Perhaps it were the terms to exchange the rights to enter China market so that Japan won’t be shut out of China market.
Not that I do not acknowledge the existence of the donation from Japan, but using aid programs to buy into other nation’s market is the most common practice in the international politics and trade.
When China first opened its market, Japan was the first one China approached for cooperation to develop market economy, Japan treated China’s approach with contempt and forced China turned to Germany and USA. Japan was shocked by China’s resolve to achieve and grow without them, by then Japan was shut out of China’s market. That’s why VW and GM are the biggest carmakers in China, not Japanese like in all other Asian nations.
shen liang, I just wonder why are you so anxious to slander China with every possible opportunity without giving a little objective thought about the hardship China has to overcome in order to achieve what it is today; even with such moderate achievement, it is under relentless assault from Westpac due to their greedy imperialism intent and the desire to turn the clock back on China to the unequal treaty era.
ozivan
@Shen Liang. Here’s my story.
Sometimes a public apology or admission of wrongdoing would put an issue
to an end more than just using money, like what Germany did.
I am a post WW2 child, but what I have learnt from my parents, teacher
and elder remain deep and long in my memory of the atrocities committed by the
Japanese invasion forces.
First, my parents had told to me and all my older siblings of stories when I was young of Japanese soldiers who forced Malayans (my parents included) to come out from their homes to watch a parade of a number of British/Australian
soldiers being marched through the main streets, with their hands not
tied with ropes or handcuffed, but their two palms were pierced through with iron wires. As they were marched down the road, some of their wives trailed behind in tears. My dad and all other menfolks were then ordered to follow the parade for another 10 miles or so to a jungle grove, where the captured British/Australian soldiers were hanged from a large tree, and the women were bayonetted.
One of my maternal relation died of shock when he was forced to watch
many Chinese men were beheaded by Japanese forces.
Second, some 20 years ago, I came to know of a school teacher who would
be some 90 years old today if he was still alive. He was a student of
the Victoria Institution (famously known as VI) in Kuala Lumpur, which
at one time for 100+ years, the pre-eminent school in Malaya and during
World War 2. In later years, he became a senior school teacher of the
VI.
He told me that one day on his way by bicycle to school taking the way
by Pudu Road, which still exists by its same name today; he hit towards a
T-junction which intersected with Bukit Bintang Road, which still
exists today by its same name. And in even more detail; at this
intersection, there stood Kuala Lumpur’s first cinema called the
Pavilion (only demolished some 20 years ago). He saw half a dozen of
heads of Chinesemen hung from half a dozen of milestones on both sides
of the road, around and along the way to the intersection.
This intersection and VI still exist today and are in the centre of Kuala Lumpur city, capital of Malaysia.
It was the Japanese invading forces way of terrorising and intimidating
the local population to obey and submit to Japanese military rule. He
opined that it was little wonder that those beheaded were innocent
bypassers who were just seized and beheaded for display at milestones.
They were at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Third, when I was in my year 10 in Anderson School, one of the 3 biggest English schools in Ipoh city, Malaya then some 45 years ago, one of my secondary school teacher told the class that our school was an ex-Japanese Kempetai headquaters. My school was opposite the main General Hospital where there were also many living quarters for hospital staff, and in one of which my teacher stayed with his parents when he was a student of my school. This teacher was a Malay indigenous, and he actually pointed us to the second main gate of our school, one of the 3 main entrances, where he told us that each time he cycled past the
Japanese Kempetai guards at the gate, he and any one else had to get down from their bicycles, made bows to the military guards, failing which one would be hit with rifle butts. Most of all, he said there were always 2 bamboo poles at the said gate with 2 Chinesemen fresh heads hung from it. Furthermore, he would often hear of screams of torture coming from our school from where he stayed which was opposite the school.
Stories of extreme water boarding by Japanese forces were common.
Such was the extreme cruelty of Japanese military rule.
And these happened in wartime Malaya, not even in China.
In my case, it’s hard to forget such stories till this day, especially when I read of some anti-China bloggers in Diplomat take great pleasure in chiding Chinese about the Japanese treatment of Chinese during the war, especially when they sometimes even challenged the authencity of the massacre in Nanjing. Hence, when the Japanese government tried to whitewash their war atrocities from their history books, the Chinese and Koreans were furious indeed.
Nevertheless, in my opinion it shows a fact that without an official apology from Japan, many Chinese still find it hard to forgive the Japanese. The ending is left suspended in the air. It is not always money that can provide healing, a true expression of sorrow would do best.
Rest be assured that I am aware of the call by many, and from my inner voice too, that the past should be bygones and that the children of ex-war Japanese should not be held responsible.
I am for it.
Nonetheless, I plan to tell my story to my grandchildren when they grow up, and it would be splendid if I could end….by saying,….However, the Japanese Government has apologised publicly…so we should close the chapter.
Indeed, it is very ironic and good that I have not read any taunting or chide remarks from true Japanese, Koreans or Westerners bloggers of how the Chinese were treated during WW2. Thank you to all of them. It’s good for healing.
Unfortunately, they are some bloggers in Diplomat who think it is fun and hype to chide from the relative safety of the internet.
It is also my call that China must grow stronger economically and militarily so that misfortunes of the past must never fall on China again. It doesn’t matter to me whether China is communist or democratic…as in Deng’s words…” so long as it catches the mice ” ie stay stronger as each day passes.
I hope young true Chinese can share the history and reconcile with the aspirations of the older generation Chinese.
Frank
Japanese aid?
Those are loans which are paid back in full.
John Chan
@Cam,
Japanese have never shown remorse about the atrocity and war crimes they have committed against Chinese; they still occupied an independent kingdom RyuKyu, they illegally occupied China’s Diaoyu island, and they secretly established military alliance with Philippines and Vietnam to contain China. How can you call a nation with such bellicose behaviour on top of its murderous past victim?
I am not surprised that Cam has such twisted logic, because he like all people from the Westpac views bombing and killing as legitimate way to maintain democracy and human rights for the world.
Cam must be fooled by the Japanese obedience appearance, but Japanese is the king of masking, they hide their true intention like Noh player. Japanese never forget the tow nukes they took in WWII; they will return the favour when the American is not looking. Pearl Harbour must be high on the gift list again.
shen liang
@John Chan
You clearly haven’t looked at the data, which is what we would expect from someone who believes 1980-2008 is 38 years. This is basic counting. The words thick and face seem appropriate.
By claiming Japan provided aid just to buy their way into China’s market, rather than establishing better relations between countries and actually helping people, you are doing something both immoral and unfortunately typical in China. You are noting the aid provided but trying to use it to vilify Japan by making them just seem greedy. This is bad enough to do when you receive help, but many angry Chinese do it while they are still screaming that Japan owes them something. The fact is that this is the immoral two-faced action you often blame westerners for. Take a look at the projects many foreigners perform in China. Water-management, primary school education, etc. Are these the best projects for opening China’s market? Nonsense. You must be asked to speak rationally, if you can.
Japan has still provided China with much more than any nation received from Germany after WWII. And why you think providing the US (who they also attacked) with money in addition to China is wrong, or a sign that Japan “can’t distinguish right from wrong” just shows how confused you are.
How can acknowledging how much assistance China received from foreign countries be considered “slandering” China? Only in your mind, John Chan. I’m afraid you show just how extreme you are every time you post.
nirvana
Allow me to bring to this discussion some additional facts:
Chairman Mao said in 1972 (first state visit of a Japanese PM to Beijing) that China is grateful to the Imperial Army for weakening the Chinese nationalist army during WWII. He also added “China does not want war reparation”.
A war price Japan had to pay is to renounced all right and title of Taiwan and Penghu (San Francisco Conference, 1951), two islands that Qing emperor ceded permanently to Imperial Japan by virtue of the Treaty of Shimonoseki. Subsequently, the Treaty of Taipei ended the state of war between the ROC and Japan.
But the Treaty of Taipei was between Japan and one China. Is there a treaty that ended the state of war between Japan and the second China? Yes, there is one. It is the
TREATY OF PEACE AND FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN JAPAN AND THE PEOPLE’S
REPUBLIC OF CHINA (August 12, 1978)
What does it says? In its preamble it recalls the meeting between Mao and PM Tanaka:
—–
“Recalling with satisfaction that since the Government of Japan and the Government of the People’s Republic of China issued a Joint Communique in Peking on September 29, 1972, the friendly relations between the two Governments and the peoples of the two countries have developed greatly on a new basis.
Confirming that the above-mentioned Joint Communique constitutes the basis of the relations of peace and friendship between the two countries and that the principles enunciated in the Joint Communique should be strictly observed.
—–
“Strictly observed”. The peace treaty confirmed that China did not ask for war reparation. Also, contrary to the Treaty of Taipei signed with the ROC, there is no mention of Japan renouncing its sovereignty of Taiwan in this one.
John Chan
@shen liang,
So you can do basic counting, then why didn’t you do the correct counting on the Japanese aids to China?
For a while China did believe Japan was redeeming itself from its past crimes, but recently its aggression behaviour proved that Japan is playing it old two-faced tricks, the aids seems like the sugar coating of a cyanide pill which is a blade on China’s territory. This same trick was the standard practice played by all those imperial powers on China during the era of unequal treaties.
Calling bloggers immoral because they revealed the insidious intent against China is a sign of disrespect freedom of speech, intolerance, and totalitarian.
Of course to anti-China bigots, any explanation on behalf of China is CCP propaganda and endangering the democracy, meanwhile no matter how racist, bigotry, irrational, insidious and ridiculous they say and act, they consider they are giving constructive criticism to China and it is for the benefit of China.
shen liang, “it is good for China” stuff you can keep it to yourself, China does not want it.
Finally, only a well frog will claim the sky is only well mouth big, if one cannot see beyond the well mouth, he should not claim he knows the size of the sky.
Cam
@john chan,
Whatever you said here reflect Ah Q’s mentality, self-satisfaction. (hahaha, remember Reason said about you on this?). Anyway, the bottom line is China has been receiving aids from Japan and “Westpac” all along for decades and you can’t deny this fact. These are countries you insult non-stop while extending your hands to beg for more aids. This is ungrateful, don’t you know?
You keep bragging about your “strength”, is this all about your strength”
shen liang
@John Chan
Because unlike you, I actually know how to read the data. Here is a statement that would help a rational person figure out why the aid Japan provided China is well over US$40 billion:
“The following is a list of the types of financing which AidData does not currently include:
•Aid flows from non-governmental organizations
•Private long-term capital
•Grants by private voluntary agencies
•Loans made out of funds held in the recipient country
•Foreign direct investment (FDI), unguaranteed bank lending, portfolio investment.
I did not state that the projects tallied by the website added up to $50 billion; I stated that Japan has provided $50 billion and listed the website for everyone to be aware how much aid generally (by many nations) China has been given. Look back over my words and read closely. The fact that the website provides a low estimate should only embarrass you more, seeing that your delusional rambling about weapons and poison is completely absent of reality. China, simply put, receives enormous amounts of help from other nations and has for decades. No nation in the world has received as much help in development from others. And Japan’s contribution has been enormous. Much larger than any nation received from Germany post WWII.
So to recap, John Chan, when you can count properly to 38, perhaps we’ll think about reading another one of your hateful rants. When you start to acknowledge things people actually say, rather than spit all over your screen and throw your twisted hatred at them, perhaps we’ll take you seriously. Until then, your posts remain a tragic joke. Don’t presume to speak for China.
John Chan
@Cam,
I didn’t deny China got aids from everywhere before it can stand on its own feet, China put those aids into good use by improving its people livelihood; it is way better than the Westpac which is ripping off the whole world with sophisticated financial instruments even they are richest in the world, they robbed the world not because they want to improve their people’s live, but to fill their unsaturated greed, and numbers in their bank account, meanwhile bring the world the largest financial meltdown in the history, and ruin hundreds of millions of people livelihood.
Ungrateful indeed, USA got trillions from China to support it’s existence, then blamed China for lending it money and made laws to denounce China for its debt.
Cam, Chinese bloggers never brag China’s strength like the anti-China bloggers, Chinese bloggers are only here to expose the lies told about China, clear smear painted on China and corrected distorted facts fabricated for China.
John Chan
@shen liang,
Well said, if you didn’t use the aid figures to slander and smear China, you would indeed bring useful information to this site and let all readers know the good deed Japan has done. Unfortunately your anti-China rant surly didn’t do Japanese a favour.
I am only a simple blogger telling my personal view regarding what I know about China, I never image I speak for China, I only hope my meagre effort can slow down the lies told about China becoming the de factor facts. But how about you, whom are you speaking for? Are you prepare to acknowledge things Chinese bloggers actually say too instead of smearing them unnecessarily?
ozivan
@Nirvana. Good work. In case, I may have missed out, were there any mention of a public apology in the Joint Communique ?
If none, any idea why it was excluded ? It would be helpful knowledge.
nirvana
@Shen Liang,
Congratulations. Excellent counter-argument.
Nevertheless, I would like to ask some questions on the subject of reconciliation. As we know, war reparation is not sufficient to ensure peace. On the contrary: excessive (and endless) demands for reparations can be the feeding ground for distrust, acrimonious disputes, leading to wars, over and over. On the other hand, the same can be said about denials of wrong doings and revisionism.
So, my questions are:
1) Do you think that Japan has apologized enough for WWII (not specifically only to the PRC)?
2) Specifically for Chinese, taking into Mao Zedong’s declaration in 1972, which form of additional apologies should Japan make so that the Chinese could turn the page, like the French did vis-a-vis the Germans?
shen liang
@John Chan
Who here wanted to do the Japanese a favor? My point is what the Chinese should know before they make their judgments of Japan and the Japanese. Breathe more deeply, please.
Secondly, how did I “slander and smear” China? How is anything I said an “anti-China rant”?
Please answer these questions directly. Otherwise, I’ll be forced to observed that your posts are consistently so extreme that you may even be a rabid persona created to defame China. That is certainly what you accomplish. You don’t seem to care what comes out of your mouth. So much of what you say is filled with hate and unsubstantiated accusations.
Whom am I speaking for? Look at my posts. I said I was shocked. I said I believe many of my countrymen would feel the same way. Hardly anybody in China knows how much aid and assistance China (still!) receives from other nations, and they certainly have no idea what kind of projects are being carried out. When foreigners are conducting projects for primary school education throughout China, while the central government doesn’t allocate enough funds, don’t you think that’s something people want to know? I think they do. If anyone, I speak for the data that I feel is informative.
“Are you prepare to acknowledge things Chinese bloggers actually say too instead of smearing them unnecessarily?”
John Chan, I’ve responded to what yang zi said above without any smearing. I’ve also responded to Franks comments previously without smearing, even though they suggest he doesn’t know anything about Chinese history, even less about Western history, and yet is culturally smug. If you are specifically talking about yourself, then tell me: what facts, under the hate-filled stream of verbiage you posted above, would you like me to acknowledge? What information have you provided? Could you have said them any more respectfully? I would like you to sincerely consider answering these questions
@nirvana
Unfortunately, I don’t think any amount of apologies would ever be enough. I think the Japanese know this as well, which makes it more tragic. I do know the Japanese have apologized repeatedly, and I believe one of their statesmen speaking in Washington said, “Most Americans like to begin a speak with a joke, but since I am Japanese, I will begin with an apology.” Even though I think no apology will ever be “enough”, I was moved by that. It was funny and deeply sad for me at the same time.
Some Chinese say the Japanese apologies haven’t been direct enough. I use to tell my friends that we no longer blame the Japanese for what they did, now we simply blame them for being Asian. We can never expect them to speak out and acknowledge their faults as directly and clearly as the Germans once did unless they are further Westernized. I think there is a cultural obstacle the Chinese intuitively know keeps the Japanese from speaking in such a manner, but which the Chinese hate to admit for two reasons: 1) because then we would change our expectations; 2) because the Chinese have the same obstacle. We scream about textbooks when 1 out of hundreds of Japanese textbooks have a small problem, and only a few schools use it, but look at Chinese textbooks. They are ideological and revisionist to the core. The way they report the Korean War is a crime againsts historiography.
My grandmother’s father was killed by Japanese. My grandmother’s husband was killed by my own countrymen during the Cultural Revolution. She didn’t wait for apologies from the Japanese or her own government. Most people who truly suffered didn’t. I think the best way to honor my grandma is not never carry around more anger and outrage than she did. Never pretend our sufferring was greater than her own. She would never want that. We are going to have to walk away from this anger and hold our loved ones in our hearts. The only way we can do that is to realize the apology is not really what we are seeking.
2) I wish the Japanese could have recorded Chairman Mao thanking them for their invasion of China. If they could broadcast such a recording, that would be the only thing they would have to do.
nirvana
@Shen liang,
What an eye-opening analysis of the difficulties to reconcile Japan and China (Japanese and Chinese)! You are right. Homo-sapiens differ only by culture and education, for the best or the worst. And history textbooks can be used as WMD.
Your family’s sad experience of war and tyranny makes your stand very convincing. But even without this element, your exceptional contributions to the discussions on The Diplomat have always shown the huge difference between being a patriot and being a nationalist. Thanks for giving hope in the future.
Hey, readers of The Diplomat, China is back!
John Chan
@shen liang,
You are not the only one have those tragic experience, and you are confused with personal experience with Japan as a nation and their expansionist national policy. I lived in Japan many years. So please do not lecture me something you only learn from a meeting opening and hearsay from somebody, without in depth knowledge at all.
All I said Japan has not shown remorse about the war crimes and atrocity they committed against Chinese in WWII, their insincerity is supported by their acts, such as it is still occupying Ryukyu kingdom, illegally occupying China’s Diaoyu island with force, etc.
If Japan sincerely repents about their war crimes, why can’t they show remorse like the Germans? Give up the lands that are not theirs, remove those war criminals from their shrine, reduce their lethal weaponry, stop their hostile activities against Chinese fisherman, stop rewriting their school textbooks to white wash their war crimes in WWII, etc.?
When Wang Jingwei became Japanese lap dog, he claimed he was sacrificing himself to reduce the suffering of Chinese under the Japanese occupation. There are a lot of similarities between your comments and what Wang Jingwei had said. Definitely you are not speaking on behalf of Chinese.
shen liang, this is a forum for people to present different opinions due to their different life experience, your relentless effort to denounce the opinions not to your liking is an act of intolerance, that is bad for China.
ozivan
@Shen Liang You replied to Nirvana : Unfortunately, I don’t think any amount of apologies would ever be enough. I think the Japanese know this as well, which makes it more tragic. I do know the Japanese have apologized repeatedly,
I may have missed out on the apology that you said that Japan has repeatedly given ? Was it specifically to China ? I am well past 60 years old now and in the last 45 years (even as a teenager, I love reading world news and political news) but I cannot recall that Japan has specifically apologised to China for her war atrocities. But I do recall there was one given to the South Koreans.
Could you provide more details ? And was the Japanese Statesmen you mentioned who started his speech in Washington with an apology meant them for China or USA ?
However, I disagree with your view that : Unfortunately, I don’t think any amount of apologies would ever be enough.
I once had an encounter with a visiting Japanese of my same age and we shared views of the war. His view was that Japan need not apologise to any one any more because she had already suffered from the 2 atomic bombs.
Further to that, I was stunned when he also added that he hated the Americans for deploying the 2 atomic bombs on Japan, although it was then clear that Japan was already loosing the war. Besides, he stated that Japan attacked Pearl Harbour because US & Britain embargoed oil and raw materials to Japan.
Of course, I have read and seen documentaries by US sources, why they had to use the bombs on Japan.
Such were the diversity of views all round. Hope, more Japanese could offer more versions of their story.
On apologies.
If I am not mistaken they were some offered, rather more of expression of regrets than real apologies, and they were largely made by lower level Ministers like Foreign Ministers at less formal forums or conferences.
None so far by the Emperor or by Japan’s Prime Minister at a formal meeting between China or Korea & Japan’s Heads of State or Joint Communique. That is why, even the Chinese and Koreans still argue that Japan had not ” sufficiently ” apologise.
Please keep on sharing.
Cam
@shen liang
What a piece of beautiful mind! I am shocked and awed, and moved by your words here, shen liang. Thanks so much. From you, I can see hope.
yang zi
Look at your guys, is the group hug over?
Shen Liang is a naive person. Japan need to come clean, the way to come clean is not apologize every time, not monetary compensation, but the clear willingness to draw a line between right and wrong. The visiting of war criminal shrine is a prime example. They should clearly denounce the war criminals; rather, they visit the shrine and come up with excuses.
On the textbook issue, it is not because it is used by only a few schools, the whole society should rise up and criticize it. Imagine a US textbook describing slavery with a glory tune, what is going to happen? Do you think American society will keep the silence?
Shen Liang has a good point about Japanese been Asian. But he doesn’t understand that because of Japanese atrocities, Japan lost the privilege to protect its war time heritage. Japan thinks those war criminals are just patriots who went a little bit too far, and they also don’t think they were real criminals, they were just sentenced by winners of the war.
Germany had a better vision, it came clean and then started building Europe, now it is the dominate power of Eruope, benefiting from the market access. Japan took a different route, its biding its time and preserve as much as looted properties as possible. It is still claiming a Korea island it took during colonial era, it is holds Chinese islands taken from its imperial rise.
nirvana
@Yang zi,
When Shen liang approached the issue of reconciliation between nations, it was a candid (not naïve) analysis of the cultural differences vs commons between Asians/Westerners, Chinese/Japanese. You used American and German examples to lecture how Japanese should atone, and you implicitly assumed (or pretended) that China itself is automatically part of the high ground.
When Shen liang discussed the controversial Japanese revisionism history textbook, it was not a fixation at the tree, but a panoramic view of the forest. It did not take me long to verify that the vast majority of the Japanese are repulsed by the version of history propagated by a minority (the Tsukuru-kai). It did not take me long to discover that the Yasukuni Shrine is not a “war criminal shrine”, although a few WWII war criminals “kami” were recently “merged” there with that of 2.5 millions “men and women whose lives were dedicated to the service of the Emperor, particularly to those killed in wartime”, since the 1860s. It is a symbol exploited by ultra-nationalists, but because it is a mix of tradition, religion and superstition, we have to give time to the Japanese to overcome this cumbersome heritage. And thanks to Google and Youtube it was quick to find examples of Japanese relentlessly hunting for criminal concealments of their WWII wrong doings.
So thanks to you too, for showing the huge difference between an ultra-nationalist (like you) and a patriot (like Shen liang). It took me a while though, to realize that you are not part of these ultra-nationalists who just repeat automatically what they are told, without the means to break free of the virtual world they are kept in. You have higher education and you are part of this small elite who cultivates this ultra-nationalism into a wild forest. The fact that you avoid the subject of MAINSTREAM Chinese textbook treatments of the Korean war is a telling evidence that you know what you are doing.
John Chan
@nirvana,
You are showing typical lackey mentality, any independent thinking and behaviour have to be denounced at all costs in order to cover their own ugly characters.
shen liang is either misguided or something like Wang Jingwei.
yang zi
@nirvana, what did Chinese text book do wrong about Korea war? is it a fact that China was in danger?
if that shrine honors war dead since 1860, all the more reason to not to visit. that was the time when Japan embarked on the imperialist conquest. The Japanese emperor was as guilty as those war criminals.
let’s not white wash what Japan did, it hasn’t come clean.
yang zi
@John Chan, I don’t agree shen liang is Wang JinWei, we shouldn’t use that kind of words so randomly. I can see he is a good person and with the open mind that many of our countrymen lacks. but he is just naive and thinks the best of other people. yes, there are good people all over the world, but there are many bad people too, they will bring you down in a heart beat if they have a chance. shen liang is just too naive to realize this.
ozivan
Or is Shen Liang also speaking for his other half…a Japanese woman ? No offense meant. Shen Liang argues well, for sure…although I disagree with some of his views and facts.
nirvana
(replies to Yang zi, Ozivan & John Chan)
@Yang zi,
I would rather let Shen Liang explicit why Chinese history textbooks “are ideological and revisionist to the core”. Your reactions are self-explanatory to me.
-On the Yakusuni shrine and Hirohito:
China, Taiwan and Korea are right to condemn the political use of the shrine. My opinion is that any nation has the right to mourn their fallen in wars, on the condition that this remembrance must not be diverted into glorification of militarism. The problem with the Yasukuni is not because it is a place of worship, but that it used to be an institution and a symbol of Imperial Japan. But any one making a casual web search would know that Hirohito ceased to visit the shrine as from 1978. Akihito is following his father’s example.
So, the Japanese psyche on this is evolving in the right direction, considering also the Shintoism dimension of it.
For me, there is no doubt that Hirohito, as the supreme commander that he was, shared the largest responsibility in Japan’s conduct of war (and its undeniable extreme atrocities). He did not deny this. After the surrender he volunteered to apologize (as Emperor) to the Allied and to abdicate so that he could be tried as an ordinary citizen, the result of which would be death by hanging. But General McAthur talked him out of this. Had the General not have this wisdom, Japan would have been the first Iraq-like occupation quagmire to the US army, perhaps until today. I don’t know how Japanese judge Hirohito today. Considering Japanese well known sense of honor, personally I don’t think that, as a man, his soul rests in peace. Nevertheless, I take my hat off to the stateman after WWII who inspired Japanese through the “unbearable”, so that we have the modern Japan of today.
-On the core issue of reconciliation between Japan and China:
Let me complement with this: being in the victorious camp that dictated the terms of surrender to Japan (which accepted without condition), having signed the “Treaty of Peace & Friendship” in 1978, what is China asking exactly now? How can a surrender of any country be obtained in future, if the terms of surrender can be continuously re-interpreted by the victor(s)?
I think that being a victor, if you made a miscalculation when you sent out your terms to your enemy, you have to live with it. This is parole.
@Ozivan,
>> “@Nirvana. Good work. In case, I may have missed out, were there any mention of a public apology in the Joint Communique ? If none, any idea why it was excluded ? It would be helpful knowledge.”
—–
Why don’t you look it up instead of asking ME???
What would your grand children think about your ignorance on such an important historical milestone?
>> “@Shen liang… Unfortunately, they[there] are some bloggers in Diplomat who think it is fun and hype to chide from the relative safety of the internet”
—-
Glups… Run Shen Liang, run !
>>” Or is Shen Liang also speaking for his other half…a Japanese woman ?”
—-
??!!
What a shocking mentality you showed here Ozivan!
For readers who are not familiar with Blogger Ozivan, please note that he has been prolific about his (juicy) personal details. We know that his family immigrated from Malaysia to Australia, that he speaks but does not read Chinese, that he has a Filipina maid (with high education and good-looking(!?), he insisted), that he treats well his Indian employees (hard-workers, he said), that he knows CPC cadre and people with connections with Chinese opium traffickers (in the time of Mao), that he has “40 years of working experience” for hire. Now we know that he wants to teach his grand-children patriotism, “with Ozivan characteristics”. That is glorifying Chinese militarism, in the “relative safety” of Australia.
@John Chan,
>> “@nirvana, You are showing typical lackey mentality, any independent thinking and behaviour have to be denounced at all costs in order to cover their own ugly characters.”
—–
(Yawn)
ozivan
@Nirvana. Why don’t you look it up instead of asking ME???
What would your grand children think about your ignorance on such an important historical milestone?
Nirvana. When you stated the above, you are obviously bent on being rude despite a polite request for details.
Certainly, I have done my own checkup, but am unable to find any mention of apology in the Joint Communique between Mao & PM Tanaka or in any leaders’ summits between China and Japan. What I had in mind when I asked you was that, since you have done some serious research on the subject, you might be able to direct me to a link where I can read more, thus shortcutting my endless search for the “apology” issue.
Unfortunately, you Nirvana took it in bad light.
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On your characterisation of my person. I say most of the facts are true,.. Thank you… except when you added the following ( obviously again meant to be rude and sarcastic ) :-
Now we know that he wants to teach his grand-children patriotism, “with Ozivan characteristics”. That is glorifying Chinese militarism, in the “relative safety” of Australia.
Nirvana. By and large after following all your previous comments, I can see that you have been a hardworker, doing much research and often provided valuable information and numerous good analysis to us bloggers in the Diplomat.
Hence, I don’t intend to return your compliment, believing you are a meaningful effective contributor/debater.
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Re: Revelation of personal details. I am mindful that some bloggers may think that it is not necessary to reveal too much personal details, which might be correct; but I choose to do so because I don’t think it’s a shameful thing.
Ex-Prime Minister John Howard of Australia once replied to remarks by detractors that Australians were children of convicts. To which he deflected in humour and with great amusement, that such history is a fact that need no statement of defence. In fact, he said that Australians wear it like a badge with pride of their historical origins.
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Nirvana. You were unhappy with this :
>>” Or is Shen Liang also speaking for his other half…a Japanese woman ?”
Please ponder further. A few other bloggers frequently made ugly remarks, especially the racial types about Indians, which I ocassionally rebutted. What’s the MOTIVATION ? The motivation for my rebuttals obviously was because they were unfair, as I have many good Indian friends. I felt compelled to stand with them.
Likewise, Shen Liang may have a Japanese person dear to him or a Japanese experience dear to him that he comes out to defend the Japanese. It was my guess with nothing sinister about it when I raise the point ?
Are such positive driven motivation to act in certain way a wrong thing ?
nirvana
@Ozivan,
You surely scored a point. You certainly made me hit the roof(s).
And you know why?
How could you put in an innocent child’s brain something useful about history between Japan and China, when you could not Google “Joint Communique China Japan”?
What could you teach a vulnerable child about friendship when you insinuate that a Chinese can have a biased opinion simply by assuming that he might be influenced by a hypothetical relationship with a non-Chinese?
Anybody serious about documenting on Imperial Army’s conduct of war, better google “Unit 731” (for example), rather than “Ozivan’s personal stories on The Diplomat”. You may learn that there are patriotic Japanese today who are hunting for concealed evidence about WWII atrocities committed by the Imperial Army.
One of the things I hate most is the misuse of the Internet as a Chinese Whispers game.