Andrew Erickson, an associate professor at the U.S. Naval War College, is known for his views on Chinese aerospace and naval capabilities. His latest edited volume is entitled: 'Chinese Aerospace Power: Evolving Maritime Roles.'
Erickson holds a distinct viewpoint concerning tensions between the U.S. and China in space. In this exclusive interview with The Diplomat, he argues for a more conservative approach – one that takes into account the unique vulnerabilities of space systems.
You seem wary of policymakers viewing space as a “panacea” for the U.S. military as it tries to balance China. How should policymakers view space?
Since the 1980s, the U.S. military has progressively increased its reliance on unrestricted access to the space commons. This dependence is a double-edged sword. The conflicts the U.S. has waged thus have all been against adversaries that were unable to challenge this critical linchpin. China is a great power with a very different level of capability. In developing jamming, anti-satellite (ASAT), and directed-energy weapons, China is accruing capabilities to compromise and harm U.S. space assets to a degree not seen since the Soviet Union confronted the U.S. in the Cold War.
One of a wide variety of reasons that U.S.-China conflict should be avoided if at all possible is that it would be extremely detrimental to both parties and the rest of the world given the two nations’ ability to harm both each other and the fragile environment of space. At the same time, the U.S. must protect its interests, allies, and friends, as well as global norms. This will be a difficult balancing act, particularly as China (like Russia) seeks to limit the U.S. military’s exploitation of space by promoting “anti-weaponization” policies in the U.N. and other fora, while at the same time pursuing ground-based systems designed precisely to achieve some of the very effects in space that it decries. This Janus-faced effort should not go unquestioned, and the U.S. must prepare deterrent and defensive measures accordingly.
Despite their differing rhetoric, both the U.S. and China are already able to fight through space and have developed capabilities to fight into space. Neither would benefit significantly from attempting to fight from space, and it is in both their interests to avoid fighting in space.
Today, U.S. policy-makers must view space comprehensively as a vital medium, primarily to support peacetime activities and deterrence, but — in a worst-case scenario — to support wartime activities as well. This requires developing and maintaining a complex portfolio of assets with very different roles, strengths, and weaknesses. Survivability and functionality are very different in peacetime and wartime, and “one size fits all” standards and objectives should not be imposed across the board. Not everything needs to be geared to high-intensity conflict with a near-peer; fortunately, this is a low-probability contingency, albeit one whose very possibility casts a penumbra of strategic deterrence. This penumbra makes strategic competition and deterrence matter in peacetime. It makes Sino-American great power relations promising yet often problematic. It makes it necessary to discuss frankly difficult issues like the potential for hostilities in space.
If space systems are vulnerable, why not simply harden them with passive and active defenses, and protect them with offensive space capabilities?
Let me address this in two parts. With respect to hardening space systems, this should be done as feasible and cost-effective, but many measures are expensive and there is only so much that can be done, even at exorbitant expense. Most systems likely can’t be protected completely against a determined attacker. They typically stay in predictable orbits, facilitating both the prediction of variance in their operations and their targeting. Unlike that of land or even the seas, the exposed environment of space offers no terrain to hide in or to channel enemy attack in a specific direction. Orbital assets are difficult to maneuver and even more difficult to attempt to hide. This offense-dominant environment favors the arrow, not the shield.
This raises the question as to what extent it might be feasible and desirable to develop and deploy capabilities to degrade, disrupt, deny, disable, and destroy another nation’s space systems in order to deter it from attacking our own. A robust posture that goes beyond limited preparations to fight into space might be termed the “Sean Connery Approach,” after the actor’s memorable line as officer Jimmy Malone in the 1987 movie The Untouchables: “You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital; you send one of his to the morgue. That’s the Chicago way!”
This approach has several potential problems, however. First, it might succeed in deterring a potential adversary. But what if that nation is less reliant on space than the U.S. — as is China today? In a worst case scenario, PLA strategists might view having both nations’ military space assets being disrupted, or “taken off the table,” as an advantageous trade. Then there is the issue of asymmetric interests. In the least unlikely source of Sino-American military conflict, a confrontation over Taiwan, Chinese decision-makers might well perceive threats from Washington as lacking credibility because they believed that Taiwan’s status was more important to Beijing, and that Washington would therefore be unlikely to make equivalent sacrifices to further its position. Finally, there’s the “Glass House Dynamic.” Space is an incredibly important supporting medium for U.S. military and commercial activities — as it is for other nations, including, increasingly, China. At the same time, it is an offense-dominant environment, meaning that it is very easy to target assets there, and very hard — if not impossible, in certain cases — to defend them. Great care should be taken, therefore, in engaging in activities that might be perceived as inciting its disruption. Whatever any nation may say, both “defensiveness” and “offensiveness” are in the eye of the beholder.
Certainly the U.S. should prepare relevant countermeasures, and in a worst case scenario should not be limited to bringing “a knife to a gun fight.” But given the many options available, care should be taken not to promote a full-blown “Chicago way” in space by moving from preparing to fight into space to its outright weaponization. Space’s nature as an inherently offense-dominant environment makes it not only unnecessary, but also counterproductive and even dangerous, for a nation to preemptively deploy inherently offensive weapons in space. Weaponization of space could favor asymmetric countermeasures, thereby partially negating American advantages in comprehensive national power. Keeping space as peaceful as possible for as long as possible will therefore best preserve both U.S. interests and international stability. Since space assets are difficult to protect, the U.S. should consider the following measures: developing robust (micro)satellite replacement capacity, non-space alternative capabilities, and retaliatory forces for use in a worst case scenario. (Micro)satellite replacement may or may not be cost-effective against enemy kinetic interceptors; further analysis is needed in this area. In any case, to the extent possible without compromising American national interests, the U.S. should work to minimize the chances that a potential opponent feels that it must create a “Pearl Harbor” in space to defend its own national interests. While limiting redundant safeguards may be essential to control costs, non-space alternate capabilities may be particularly useful. Space capabilities may not be fully defensible in war, but are extremely useful in peacetime, and their destruction may be retaliated against.
The U.S. is already developing the capacity to conduct defensive space actions by using ground/sea-based launch-on-demand weapons, a far more cost-effective approach than permanently deploying space-based weapons. By leading the way in militarizing space, the U.S. would increase the vulnerability of its numerous space-based assets, upon which much of its economic and military power depends. This is both because the U.S. has more in space that could be shot down, and because space-based weapons increase our space vulnerability by prompting a potential adversary to build them also.The United States must continue to improve a range of aerospace capabilities (while considering whether some capabilities could be achieved more cheaply by other means) and should not enter into agreements that would constrain its peaceful and defensive uses of space. By continuing broad-based aerospace development while avoiding both unnecessary hostilities and overly restrictive agreements, the U.S. will be ready to change its space posture should new threats warrant it.
If the U.S. can’t depend entirely on space, how does America preserve its advantage in command-and-control and intelligence systems, as they are currently largely space-based?
Space is expensive to enter and maintain assets in, but has inherent advantages, including in global coverage. This is tremendously important for two reasons. First, there is simply no way to equal such a high level of global coverage by other means without incurring far greater costs and complications; at least, in peacetime, before asset destruction becomes a factor. Second, space is the only one of the four global commons (the others being maritime, air, and cyber) in which China is not currently making active operational efforts to restrict U.S. access and use in peacetime. In the maritime and air domains (which begin 12 nautical miles from a country’s shores) by contrast, China uses policy and operational measures to attempt to limit the actions of U.S. and other militaries’ platforms in areas clearly beyond its territorial waters and airspace. In the cyber domain, China engages constantly in offensive operations beyond Chinese borders. Space is the one medium left in which China isn’t engaging in such restriction based on peacetime policies intended to regulate operations within specific geographic areas. At the same time, China is working to enable such restriction by physical means in the event of conflict, and even in peacetime. Jamming/dazzling from the ground is easy; there is no technological obstacle to China’s denying the U.S. use of the space commons.
To ensure that it can survive temporary or semi-permanent loss of critical space systems, the U.S. should increase its capabilities in other domains, bearing in mind China’s determination and increasing ability to hold at risk platforms operating near in its contested periphery. What needs to be accomplished and how this might be done in different ways should be given careful consideration.
In an engineering sense, the great advantages of an airborne “layer” for communications (as opposed to a space-based layer) are: denying the enemy the line of sight (LOS) to target and shoot one’s assets; and the ability to maneuver and deny the extreme predictability of Newtonian orbits. This last is probably the most important; even given an LOS, it is hard to hit a maneuvering target at high speeds and altitude, but satellites are capable of only the most limited maneuvering or “orbital divert.” For these reasons, satellites dominate peace-time ISR (and, to a lesser extent, communications) while aircraft are superior platforms in wartime against a China-sized opponent.
Unmanned aerial vehicles and near-space vehicles and are two types of platforms that could provide important capabilities, but have their own strengths and weaknesses. Near-space vehicles, for instance, have great advantages in wartime, but are probably the worst of both worlds in peacetime, being as expensive as spacecraft, but lacking persistence and often “re-usability.”
It seems you’re advocating greater distribution of command-and-control and intelligence assets across more regimes — air, space, manned, remote, etc. Do American research-and-development, launch and support capabilities allow for such dispersion at this point?
For airborne [Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance] and communications, launch facilities are a trivial issue. The R&D is more or less the same for the sensors, differing only in the platforms, and air platforms are generally less R&D intensive, and cheaper, than spacecraft. The U.S. military isn’t engaged in dispersion per se, but is rather diversifying, ideally into a space-based peacetime technical intelligence-gathering operation (focused on such factors as geospatial intelligence and order of battle), and an air-based wartime ISR and communications network. The U.S. already enjoys a large airborne ISR network, and the money for an airborne communications network might well come from reducing emphasis on the real-time space-based communications of the sort that might (in theory…or not) survive a Chinese assault.
Interestingly, China is likewise developing a diversity of ISR assets in both the air and space realms. On 3 January 2011, Vice Adm. David J. Dorsett, Deputy CNO for Information Dominance, stated that: “China likely has the space based … ISR … command-and-control structure, and ground processing capabilities necessary to support DF-21D employment. China operates a wide spectrum of satellites which can provide data useful for targeting within its maritime region. China [also] employs an array of non-space based sensors and surveillance assets capable of providing the targeting information necessary to employ the DF-21D…the satellite [command-and-control] systems are likely in place…China’s non-space based ISR could [likewise] provide the necessary information to support DF-21D employment. This includes aircraft, UAVs, fishing boats and over-the-horizon radar for ocean surveillance and targeting.
Manned vs. “remote” (unmanned) is not a key dimension of the space vs. alternatives debate, since all major U.S. military-relevant space capabilities are not piloted. It might be more important to Chinese force structure discussions, as Chinese strategic writings (like their Soviet predecessors) still maintain that astronauts can play a militarily-useful role in space.

Lung Sha Shou
ATTENTION MODERATOR
I draw your attention to Diplomat’s Code and Stated Criteria
“Please note, no comments that include abusive or inflammatory remarks
aimed at writers or other commenters will be accepted.”
For some contributors it appears to be honoured more in the breach than the observance. I have cut and pasted from the above the breathless, excited contributions of an apparent Nationalist and pasted them below – they are against your rules and will turn this delightful forum into an argy bargy cesspit. Ignorant opinion is one thing rudeness is another.
Whilst I do not expect the Chatham House Rules for debate to be observed here (or even Confucian precepts) I do expect people to “play the ball not the man”.
The comments below show a singular lack of respect for others, in is interesting they are mirrored by the regime that rules the nation this contributor supports. Lampooning revered national leaders has has done in other sections of this Web Publication is similarly likely to be offensive. It is fine to criticis Gandhi, even his policy of non-violence. One could legitimately talk of leaders sexual indiscretions to the extent that they influence governance, but iti NOT acceptable to make reference to clothing or to suggest earplugs be needed to deal with a nationality.
That consitutes hate speech, now I am not sure where this is published, in my jurisdiction, the law is that it is published where I read it.
Comments I find offensive from a single contributor.
America is a control freak.
@nirvana, you are a nervous wreck
@Leonard, you hold grudges and as stubborn as a mule.
spare China out of your rant.
THESE ARE AGAINST DEIPLOMAT RULES
Eric Spencer
The CIA employed writers and bloggers are out again spooking the world!
Get real, the REAL WAR is in the economic field and the winner is the One that comes on top as the PREESTEEM TRADING AND EXPORTING NATION!
The USA,being the current number one can only go down and sadly, it is doing a very bad job defending this position by spending money it doesn’t have (borrowing) on things that do not reinforce its manufacturing, industries or create jobs.Money spent on more weapons and wars are money down the drain and this will only speed its demise as a manufacturing jaggernaut.
Lung Sha Shou
Eric, for what its worth, I agree with your comment on the US “spending money it doesn’t have (borrowing) on things that do not reinforce its manufacturing, industries or create jobs” – Jeffery Sachs a Harvard Professor of Economics describes this well as do quite a few others. Our (Western) democracies have been debauched by special interests and Washington is infested with lobbyists and the agents of the wealthiest few percent who lobby for laws that benefit them but not the nation.
Republican administrations get power by appealing to the anti-gay marriage and right to life voters (As a humanist I am personally saddened by abortion and while I hold nothing against gays don’t believe in calling it marriage, even though any enduring union based on care & respect should be respected) what they do with that power involves enriching the rich, even if they bolster the military, they usually do it in a corrupt inefficient way (e.g. Halliburton’s CEO / VP Dick) The Democrats on the other hand have sold out to Wall Street as well, and don’t serve the interests of the majority of Americans.
America needs better government to reinforce its manufacturing, industries and create jobs BUT please don’t reduce it to an either or. I agree war and military spending can be amongst the most wasteful of all things including precious human life, the most valuable thing but this does not mean that ensuring a robust military capable of properly defending the nation is not necessary.
Remember the cost of the bailout which was needed because of the continuance Reagan inspired deregulation exceeded the cost of the Space Programme, the Vietnam War and the Iraq & Afghanistan War. Another example the drug company Merck killed more people than US combat casualties in Iraq & Afghanistan. We need better government and fairer administration.
With respect, I would venture that while the problems you mention are both important and at the very heart of the matter it surely is not a case of either /or – i.e. they must address those things but it doesn’t mean the West, esp. USA should not maintain a very strong military and or BMD. I don’t believe the intentions of others can always be trusted, there are those in the international community that are itching to humiliate America and dominate the world. Sure, engage them with diplomacy if you like, build trust, sponsor good will, but you’ve got to ask yourself why they are building thousands of kilometres of tunnels, researching how to down the US power grids in technical journals and talking of expansion beyond their territory. Even trading 10 ICBMS for 1 of theirs the US would still lose and they would march on. If you want to disarm or run the military down, perhaps we should wait until they start behaving like Sweden or Norway.
Despite what others will describe as paranoia (I describe as painstakingly informing myself and watching them as closely as open sources allow) you are still right in that the US is semi-bankrupt, and fixing that in appears like a hopeless task.
The real war you talk of seems to be being won by the Chinese, much to my disappointment, not because of any racist sentiment (I am half Chinese) but because they have been governed for 60 years by a morally bankrupt administration and this has affected the people. In my country, female prisoners (often not a very lovely group) would beat a person senseless for leaving a small child bleeding on the road and the fact some idiot judge had sued a Good Samaritan wouldn’t stop them. All people are the same, but the Chinese have been governed with such brutality that recent incidents can occur. The artist Ai Weiwei described just this in today’s “Australian” (Sat 5 Nov.
P.S. WWII turned the US into a manufacturing juggernaut, although it had replaced the UK in steel production and GDP before 1900. It doesn’t matter that wars can be good for economies, they are bad for people, almost as bad as bad government.
P.S. I’ll pass on the CIA bit – I just don’t know about that – so unlike some of the folk above I will shut my mouth and not be abusive. I am a medically qualified lawyer in Sydney Australia with an interest in human rights. I have worked for Amnesty and protested on the abuses in Tibet. Not that you suspected ME of working for the CIA
fellow
Whether China has a capitalist, communist, or calithumpian government in the future, great power politics will prevail. I forsee a day when the Chinese will draw a Noth South line through the Pacific Ocean (maybe snaking around Hawaii) and tell the US: “This is our side and that is your side. Now get out of our side.”
It will happen and when it does the world will draw a very deep breath.
Anon
fellow- Not much to think about after reading your thoughts of China claiming Hawaii. Its statistically possible, but not likely enough that it should be given anything but the most glancing of thoughts.
Lung Sha Shou
I am naive and therefore remain amused at unsubstantiated prejudice and aggressive and biased assertions
For example the abusive and ridiculously biased comments that “A is a control freak” or. “China’s goals are limited (defence and peripheral dominance)”. This sort of remark is not even mere opinion but facile and does not reflect reality merely nationalistic hateful prejudice – my country is wonderful and others are dreadful – worst of all it involves hideous distortions.
If we consider just the South China Sea and international law which China promised to abide by in treat it is fairly clear that China uses whatever forum or means it can to get what it wants and discards them when it suits. Yang Zi seems to be of a cast of mind that he would take that as some sort of particular criticism because of either an apparent inability to countenance the possibility that China is less than a noble long suffering nation with pure altruistic intent who has simply been maltreated by other nations and must eventually teach them a lesson. I find the sort of black and white thinking expressed in these commentaries worse than ignorant.
People should just grow up and realise that things are not black and white. China is not a benign nation who conducts itself decently and fairly any more than American Democracy is the highest form of Government, or American Foreign Policy simply an expression of great virtue. Neither is true. Both countries have acted reprehensibly and, if you have a moral compass (Not very helpful in great Power Politics and International Relations) wickedly. Nations do what is in their interests and use all sorts of arguments to justify their actions. Sometimes they will use international law, sometimes appeals to humanity, other times careful diplomacy. They use whatever works and will give them what they want in the long term and continue to justify their actions.
I agree with Yang Zi that China will probably come out on top in a few years, they are RULED by engineers with far sighted policies and do not have to worry about public opinion. The Chinese people collectively are hard and can endure hardship compared to other nations. The Chinese leadership would not be as concerned about losing, say 4 cities in a nuclear exchange, whereas the loss of New York, Chicago, Washington and Los Angeles would spell the end of America, in a way that losing Beijing, Guangdong, Shanghai, Harbin would not affect China. In any case, the thousands of kilometres of tunnels being built since 1995 as well as the development of a credible ASBM capacity indicate China is prepare to fight and win a major war, exactly as described by Chi Haotian, who described war as the midwife of the Chinese Century which he saw as a fist smashing outward.
Of course all this will cause alarms, but people will get used to it and settle down after a few years of Chinese domination and conquest, which as Chi Haotian put it will be far stronger and superior to the Nazis who he contemptuously referred to as weak by comparison.
Some writers say that “China should be a rule abiding country” but it is fairly clear China only regards rules as something which it observes when it is weak to encourage other temporarily stronger parties to do the same. When they are totally confident of hard power advantage in the South China Sea, I don’t believe Yang Zi, or anyone else will be saying that China should abide by the rules which they have agreed to. It is clear they won’t – they will do what they want and no-one will stop them. Let’s at least be honest about this. China, and other countries worry about rules when they have to, not when they can get away with it. America did much the same thing in the Caribbean a couple of
The notion that countries in Asia are “ganging up on China” is simply ridiculous. China is throwing its weight around, breaking agreements, bullying and using force and committing illegal Acts in the South China Sea which it has no right to call its own. If other countries declared similar exclusion zones China and other countries would not tolerate it, yet it expects to bully others by virtue of its size and relative power – this is exactly what other countries have done – China is no better (or worse in some ways) buts patriots everywhere have a disturbing habit of being blind to their nations crimes. China is already posturing and being belligerent – it is clear from the blogosphere and state sanctioned publications that the younger generation is very keen for a fight and/or the demonstration of Chinese military capacity. I believe they will retake Taiwan by force and no-one will be able to stop them – which should make a lot of hotheads happy.
China has few allies in the region of elsewhere and their hubris, arrogance, belligerence and entitlement is similar to that of the US at its worst. Nationalists seem to always believe in exceptionalsm – their country as better than others – the truth is that most behave in the most dismally human selfish fashion when they can. China for example is cosying up to dictators and human rights abusers just as the US has done so often.
How anyone can say China is not going for the world dominance, and only wants to defend its regional interests is ridiculous. To try and link that to “making sure South China Sea” countries are abiding by the “code of conduct” is manifestly out of touch as China itself does not do this. As far as free navigation in international waters that is precisely what the US and others are upholding. Talking of navigating between between Japanese islands within accepted limits is simply being provocative. China needs to appreciate, as do all countries, it is not one rule for others and a different one for them – you either abide by rules or you disregard them as China is currently doing – it will get away with it for a while and it knows it.
As for Taiwan, the PRC has no-right to invade a sovereign nation any more than they do Tibet or Xinxiang . Yang’s comment that he “enjoy your fear” is quite typical of the belligerent China we are seeing. Enjoying others fear and distress is typical of oppressor nations and hateful people, often those who are insecure and resentful of real or imagined insults. Why enjoy other’s fear – is that moral, decent, kind? Obviously not.
The hypocrisy of the observation that China has “full right to use international waters and sail around or near Japan”, but that US ships have to “sail around” (avoid the South China Sea) demonstrates the heart of the issue and the moral, legal and ethical bankruptcy of that position. If this sort of claim is made then it is hard to see how complaints can be made against others. It gets back to nations doing whatever they can get away with and generally not having the courage to admit it.
China continually messes with other countries internal affairs and does so relentlessly. Unfortunately the West is a bit starry eyed and greedy and fails to appreciate the great skill at which the Chinese are doing this. Fifty billion worth of Research and development is stolen from Germany alone and Chinese state sponsored cyber crime leads the world. China does want to invade and occupy other countries as described by Chi Haotian and has been biding its time and not showing strength or leadership as Deng Xiaoping instructed it wants to dominate and enforce its will – leadership is not the Chinese was – it implies consensus and agreement – China seeks to impose its will and have others with no choice but to accept – just like other countries have done ..
In spite of wild claims that “no reasonable mind would conclude that China could be a threat to the USA.” The Chinese military is focussing on this very intensely and has made the USA enemy number one despite the enormous assistance and foolishness of the US in promoting China’s “peaceful rise” and turning a blind eye to the enormous abuses of human rights by the PRC. Some in these posts refer to “wicked behaviour” and I can think of few things more wicked than state sanctioned murder and the sale of human organs, the brutal repression of the clergy and peaceful demonstrators, and the systematic use of thugs in an out of police uniform in any matter that challenges the wealth and power in a country where the inequality of wealth is greater than any other.
Another sad aspect to these posts in the childish tendency to abuse people who have different views, in this respect people should try and be a little more adult or intelligent – those who call others a “nervous wreck” or accuse others of thinking there is a conspiracy seem to make wild assertions which are mere opinion. They accuse others of “ranting” but insult people themselves. They are uniformly of the persuasion that their nation is perfect and free of all faults and the other nations are the “baddies”. Their total lack of logic is perhaps demonstrated by accusing the US of “dominating and refusing to sign treaties proposed by China and Russia to prohibit militarization of space” but conveniently forgetting that China herself very publically demonstrated her capacity to destroy a satellite. There are a lot of mental gymnastics involved here – the US is bad for not signing Chinas peace loving treaty, but China is good for using weapons in space – do you even know the timing of the propositions etc? Then reference made to US hawks but no comment on the Chinese hawks. – Would be more honest just to admit that you will adapt any set of facts to favour your nation and not really seriously engage with the truth.
In my OPINION, the Chinese are very skilled diplomats with a long range view and the Chinese people capable of enduring hardship and are very disciplined. Kissinger thought he did well in his dealings with China – he was played with like a child and underestimated Mao who did not care effectively for his people and killed more of the than any other person. The West does not fully appreciate what they are dealing with in China who to me seems more like the Kremlin, only smarter, richer and more hardworking. Our democracies have been debauched. The Chinese have a right to live well and be left alone, as do we. Unless we wake up we will be dependent upon their goodwill and kindness and what we see as “freedom” will vanish. With greater power I believe China would treat the citizens of the world with the same degree or compassion it has for its own people, or those in Burma, Tibet or anyone they disagree with.
If you want peace prepare for war, if you REALLY want peace REALLY prepare for war.
.
Yang. Zi
Jesus Christ, can anyone make a comment? Call me all kinds of names, I don’t care, as long as you feel better
a_canadian_observer
Jesus Christ! Lung Sha Shou, your are so right! you’ve said it all. Time for the CCP bloggers to take off their sheep clothing.
Yang zi
@canadian-observer, call me a wolf, it is more direct. Also Uyghurs are not XingJiang natives, but doesn’t matter, they are Chinese, even though not ethnic Han. If CCP treat them bad, because it treat every Chinese bad.
a_canadian_observer
@yangzi: As I said before, you’re not being honest. For Han chinese, as long as they’re not against the CCP they’re fine. For Xinjiang and Tibet, the plan is a complete assimilation or to wipe them out, physically and culturally. That’s the difference.
Yang zi
@c-observer, if China want to assimilate or wipe its minorities out, it would already finishes job during culture revolution. Don’t use your dark mind to read China
a_canadian_observer
@yangzi: Dark mind? That actually belongs to the people (CCP) commiting the atrocities and genocidal crimes.
Yang zi
Ok, some very good points
nirvana
@Lung Sha Shou,
Very good argumentation.
It has been several years that countries in the region have been preparing themselves for war. Countries like Vietnam which are scared to death about war, have been preparing for war. Countries which are not prepared at all, like the Philippines, have realized they need to be prepared.
The unknowns are which type of war, and which type of peace? And this is subject to China’s discretion. Every thing “around” China is under China’s discretion. And the meaning of “around” is also TBD.
I concur too with your analysis of Yang zi’s mindset. It is high time for Yang zi to take off his sheep’s clothe.
Yang zi
@nirvana, if you abide by the SCS code of conduct, why do we need war? Can we get along?
Cam
@yang zi,
The thing is NO one can’t get along with China as long as they refuse to give up her ambition of territorial expansion. You draw a wild map over a drinking drug filled party and told your neighbor “hey, this is my claim and here is a set of rules. Take it or war will come”. What kind of logic is that?
Talking about war, I think it is your normal Chinese scare tactics. Nothing more since your CCP (not you, you just like ranting out so we don’t take it seriously) knows so well that war with her Southern neighbors could spell an end to the so-called “peaceful rise” because the world is united against them and they know uncle Sam will intervene. I myself would love to see the US seventh fleet could destroy the PLAN south sea fleet within 2 days.
nirvana
@Yang zi,
To be honest I don’t know what you are talking about.
I know there was a Code of Conduct (COC) tabled by ASEAN in 1996 but it was turned down by China. Then, in 2002, China and ASEAN signed a “Declaration on the Conduct of the Parties”(DOC), a non-binding document. In summer this year, China and ASEAN signed yet another non-binding “Guidelines for implementing a COC”. I don’t know what are the differences between the COC, DOC, Guidelines, etc. Then we also have the recent 6-point agreement between China and Vietnam, which is nebulous.
I agree though that if there could be a binding COC, in which there is a map of where the prescribed Conduct shall apply, the risk for military conflicts would be significantly reduced.
Cam
Wow! you see it all.
Major Lowen Gil Marquez, Phil Army
The entrance of the Chinese in space program and by sending their first spaceship in the Space which is a signal that they were now entering into the space technological marathon that they can be used for their intended purpose in the future, other countries should not be relax in wait and see attitude because it is a perennial defeat in the future if any eventualities may arise that will canalize their position. . . The US should look into this, We should not trust always the smiling cat. . . The Art Of War is always in their memory . . . if we just wait and see, then in the future they will win. . .
shaunak
it’s a sad thing that the world is still in danger despite the horrors of the 2 world wars, formation of the United Nations,The Cold War.How long is this Capitalist-Communist war go on?some chinese and american idiots are sitting and dictating terms,and humanity has to suffer.i mean,what is the need to gain control over space?it is an idiotic concept,thought and proposed by idiots,it doesnt matter if they are americans or chinese or russians or indians.these are the idiots who are always worried about the future,and for securing the future,they are destroying the present by building nuclear weapons.the space belongs to none,it belongs to the cosmos,we are a part of space,and we’ll soon dissolve in it.
yang zi
spare China out of your rant. US is dominating and refuse to sign treaties proposed by China and Russia to prohibit militarization of space.
China is just trying to react. my proposal is also a reaction. to me, space shouldn’t be used for military actions, nuclear weapon should go way. but US is not giving them up. actually if it does, it is good for US security. the nuclear threat will be gone for Americans and the world. it makes you wonder about US intentions, hawks still want to use it.
Bờm
U.S and Western people are in danger of starvation because of pocket perforation, so their priority now is not space exploration but how to fill the stomach. Mean while, Chinese people are spending their money like a hunger meets chickin leg.
The very reason is white evils are spending freaks while Chinese are saving and controlling (freaks).
And the most valuable characteristic of a Chinese is that he can sacrifice his personal interests for the purpose of archiving CCP’s targets which sometimes only to be framed.
Bờm
Let China enjoy spending their money wherever they want, a big sum of 30 years holly economic develop must be spent to where the dreams fulfilled.
John Chan
If Taiwan is removed from the debate, you will find that there is no reason for the USA to involve in the offensive space arm race against China at all.
1. USA said Taiwan is an integral part of China, and there is only one China.
2. USA is thousands miles away on the other side of the Pacific Ocean, and no one in Asia has the capability to threat USA’s homeland.
3. None of the nations in the western Pacific Ocean is a significant trading partner of the USA, except China, Japan and SKorea.
4. But China welcomes USA stations troops in Japan and SKorea, and maintains free and safe seaway passage in the international water all over the world.
5. China is second largest trading partner and largest lender of the USA; no sound mind person wants to hurt such valuable partner.
No matter how one analyses the above conditions, no reasonable mind would conclude that China could be a threat to the USA. It makes people scratch their heads why USA will make China its enemy number one for a place it consider part of China and does not even have formal political relationship at all.
Why would USA engage in space arm race against a nation that is more a partner than rivalry? Only USA can explain their wicked behaviour.
Tom Tran
I am just amazed how change-of-tone you are now. Your Western lackey is not seeking to undermine China, but China paints itself as a victim of being China (you know, many of my Chinese friends, whenever met an unfortunate events, blamed it on themselves being Chinese). Of course, China’s response with its perception of being China is that it seeks to rule where it feels it has a chance, stepping on all cornerstones of the world. How pathetic it is.
nirvana
@John Chan,
IMHO, it is quite easy to answer to your questions:
-Why is Taiwan critical to the US while it accepted “one China” and “Taiwan is part of China”? A: Because it is publicly known that US agreed with China that Taiwan will not be reunited by force. As long as there are massive PLA deployments near Taiwan coasts, the US has no other option than, either honor the Taiwan Relation Act or nullify it.
-USA is thousands miles away how can China threaten it? A: By building a fleet of nuclear ballistic missile submarines. By developing anti-satellite weapons to put at risk US space-based communications, ISR and precise guidance. And by playing with disinformation about China “no first use”, self-declared, nuclear posture.
-Why would you be silly enough to wage war with your best business partner? A: If you are silly enough to threaten your best partner, the converse is true. This is the “scorpion nature” of any militarism-inclined state.
-Why is the US portraying China as its possible number one enemy? A: When you are the superpower, any challenger is your number one potential threat. Perhaps not officially yet, but China is positioning itself as the challenger. It suffices to sample a few Chinese military books, read the Global Times and observe how pro-China bloggers align themselves with this propaganda. China is preparing its public opinion for “when it is ready”.
Now, let’s look at the basic question of this article why a MILITARY space race? Isn’t it the most stupid thing to do for humanity?
yang zi
@nirvana, you are a nervous wreck. and you think we have a conspiracy to get you.
John Chan, Frank and I don’t know each other, and they probably had more education than you and I. I can’t speak for them, but I for one often speak with a knee jerk reaction of defending China. I am sure you and others do the same for your own country.
but realistically, China has no grand design against Philippines, Philippines has 20% Chinese mestizos, I would love to see them prosper as part of Philippine society, same goes to Aquino, but this guy is a nutcase, he is hawkish in SCS may be just to show his Chinese blood is not making him soft on China.
Anyway, Chinese diplomat on the ground should have an idea, I just hope Chinese gov can make sound judgement, either use hard power or soft power, think far and wide, and don’t hesitate to act.
nirvana
@Yang zi,
I am perplex as I don’t know whether you tried to avoid discussion or you wanted to drive discussion to the differences between us.
Let’s take the second explanation.
The fundamental difference between you and me is not the level of education but the type of education. You have been educated to be loyal to your nation, no matter what it does. I am educated to be proud of my country for what it does rightly. I am also trained to challenge any government/policy, even if it is mine and regardless of popular perceptions, when I am convinced that what it does is wrong. As supposedly we both have the same level of education, and access to the same open Internet, the difference between you and me is discernment.
I am not going to talk about blood and race. Because, I think it is irrelevant. I maintain that what makes us different as homo-sapiens is culture and education. Victor Hugo did not have a single drop of Han’s blood in him. He has never seen the Summer Palace, except from drawings in books. Yet, in 1860 he immediately took side, against his country’s barbarism, for civilized China. Take this as an example of a true patriot.
yang zi
@nirvana, you are right, it is not education, it is cultural. but then you later changed your mind, you talk about education.
may be it is education (kind of education). I don’t want to tell you my background, but safe to say I criticize Chinese gov more harsh and vehemently than you, and I participated activities against CCP you never heard of. I can tell you a long tale about my conflict and hatred against PLA soldiers. All the critics of China on this site has nothing new, I did all that and more. your friend Sheng Liang’s view is nothing, been there, done that.
but there is one thing, I, as a Chinese have culturally ingrained, that is I can criticize, but you can’t, because that’s not your business. so I defend China no matter wh
but if you are a reasonable person, I will be more reasonable than you, if you are not, I am also go with extreme. That’s me, twisted?
a_canadian_observer
@yangzi: I believe you when you said you criticized the CCP and PLA. But I only believe that you criticized them for their wrong doings to the chinese. I believe that you go along with them for the wrongdoings they have done to non-chinese. And that is one of the diffenences.
Yang zi
@candian-observer, very smart observation. I do make a difference between inside and outside of China. I admire al gore when he said GW Bush is his commander in chief after 911.
Come back to CCP and PLA, what have they ever do wrong to people of other countries?
a_canadian_observer
@Yangzi:
“Come back to CCP and PLA, what have they ever do wrong to people of other countries?” What has been happening in Xinjiang, in Tibet and to poor Vietnamese fishermen fishing in VN’s EEZ?
yang zi
@candian-observer, you are kidding right? Xinjiang and Tibet are China. China established control of Xinjiang in Han dynasty, that was 2000 years ago. Uyghurs moved there 1000 years ago. besides, Xinjiang was dominated by mongol tribes few hundred years ago until Qing reestablished control. Uyghurs are guest to Xingjiang, but they are now Chinese and proudly living in Xinjiang.
Tibet is under Qing for the entirety of its rule.
as for Vietnamese fisherman, what happened? did military do anything to them? or they were just administered by fishing authority?
a_canadian_observer
@yangzi: “Xinjiang and Tibet are China. China established control of Xinjiang in Han dynasty, that was 2000 years ago. Uyghurs moved there 1000 years ago. besides, Xinjiang was dominated by mongol tribes few hundred years ago until Qing reestablished control. Uyghurs are guest to Xingjiang, but they are now Chinese and proudly living in Xinjiang.” Native people of Xinjiang and Tibet are non-chinese.
“as for Vietnamese fisherman, what happened? did military do anything to them? or they were just administered by fishing authority?” The chinese fishing authority you mentioned is actually the navy in disguise. That tells you how low they’ve become.
Cam
@yang zi,
Like I said in other comments, you are incapable of debating with Nirvana honetly and intelligently. Perhaps, you are not honest in any kind of debating. Your lack of reading related materials as well as your superior attitude makes you so ignorant and intolerant of other cultures.
a_canadian_observer
@Cam: You’re correct! Nirvana had sent yangzi home empty handed on a number of debates re. the SEA sea (a.k.a. SCS), yet that didn’t stop yangzi from coming back asserting china’s illegal claims.
Lung Sha Shou
John Chan
You really have a massive problem in stating things as if they are true.
You KEEP doing this. I udnerstand where you are coming from in that it is right out of Goebbels.
Its very pompous and self important, worse still you are frequently wrong
e.g China welcomes USA stations troops in Japan and SKorea, and maintains free and safe seaway passage in the international water all over the world.
Never mind the bad english – its just wrong, and you know it, and the staff colleges, the USNI, the Second Artillery (Know who they are mate?) know it is simply not true.
Let me show you how it works . . (Are you ready mate? . . .
“Taiwain is a sovereign independent nation”
Just because its stated as fact doesn’t make it so, just because YOU say it doesn’t make it so.
Do your research and don’t waste people’s time promouncing opinion as fact, your not on CCTV now.
yang zi
America is a control freak. Since China’s goals are limited (defense and peripheral dominance), the requirement for winning in a local conflict is much less challenging. this is a race or battle US can not win.
All these are just theories. it all depends on how China execute this. a good missile defensive network, credible strategic counter strike capability, overwhelming fire power on peripheral targets are all it needs, it doesn’t even need a blue water navy.
China’s infrastructure build up shouldn’t come to an end, it should switch gears, go for the industrial build up. building capabilities of military industrial complex. expand its space program by 300%, increase its hardware purchase by 300%, just triple everything in defense and space sector. it will create many hi tech jobs and contribute to the economy. 300% increase will just put the defense budget on par with what US spend in terms of the percentage of GDP.
With limited commitment and low cost of operation, China will come on top in its peripheral in a short time.
Of course all these will cause alarms, but people will get used to it and settle down after a few years.
yang zi
at this moment, China’s military build up has competitive advantage than US and other countries like India. it creates more high quality jobs than US for the same amount of money. India’s buildup doesn’t create jobs.
China should be a rule abiding country, but it should have big sticks to handle bad actors.
Anon
Dominate any body of water without a navy?
yang zi, you are living in a fantasy land and are obviously of the Chinese nationalist bent.
You think people will get used to a belligerant China?
Hmmm, either most of the countries in Asia are in on a plot to gang up on China, or China has astoundingly bad diplomacy with other nations in the region which alienate those countries through examples such as one of China’s diplomats demanding other countries obey it because China is big and they are small.
There is a reason China has few allies in the region. It’s hubris, it’s arrogance, and it’s belligerence.
Leonard R.
@anon: “either most of the countries in Asia are in on a plot to gang up on China, or China has astoundingly bad diplomacy…”
It has astoundingly bad diplomacy. Hu Jintao makes George W. Bush look
like Barney the Friendly Dinosaur.
Good interview by David Axe BTW.
yang zi
@Leonard, you hold grudges and as stubborn as a mule.
China gives billions to Philippines (just google it), yet it still makes trouble for China, the reed bank gas/oil probably worth a fraction of Chinese aid.
if anything, China is giving money to the wrong country.
yang zi
@Anon, I am a realist. and I also think a cool war between China and US might be a good thing for both, allow both side to think through and act with abundance of caution.
China can build an advanced defense system with sensors and precision strike capabilities to peripheral targets. the overwhelming land mobile missile strike capability, plus a coastal defensive missile boats and subs are enough to dominate the region. of course, a credible strategic force is also needed.
This will make sure nobody make foolish moves. China doesn’t need allies in this regard, they are not reliable anyway. you may think US has allies, but depending on the conflict, they are of limited help.
again, you (and people of similar opinion) and I have a fundamental difference in the understanding of China’s objective, China is not going for the world dominance, it is only want to defend its regional interests, for example, make sure SCS countries are abiding by the code of conduct, would like to freely sail through international waters between Japanese islands. and also make sure Taiwan is on the path of peaceful reunification with China.
but you are thinking China is rising to get you. I enjoy your fear but it is not true.
As long as China stay in the parameters I laid out, There is nothing other countries can do to stop it. Japan will not be happy, but hey, that’s international water, China has full right to use it for its navy. As for US ships, they can sail around China, no problem.
John Chan
USA does not have allies but only tools, once a tool is done, selling the tool is American way of life.
Anon
If you put the DF-21d as a given, then by that same level the US has railguns and lasers, as both have roughly the same level of demonstrated viability. Of course this is to make sure China doesn’t make such a foolish move such as reclaiming Taiwan by force or taking any near body of water by force.
yang zi- It is increasingly seen by China that the solution to safeguard their regional interests is regional dominance. I am not even bringing up whether China has global ambititions, because it’s not relevant until and if China becomes a regional hegemon. You admit China wants to be regional hegemon and have the ability to command countries to give up waters all the way up to their beaches!
There is no reason for me or any Americans to fear China at least anymore than China should have reason to fear the US. Despite the rhetoric from at least one Chinese general, it is hoped that China has a rational outlook when it comes to the use of nuclear weapons, in which case we have nothing to fear.
-John Chan- North Korea isn’t a tool for China? I hope it is, because the other thought would be even more damning.
Also the region doesn’t need the US to sow discord, China did quite a good job itself with its diplomatically horrendous 9 dotted line map. Add border disputes and China is simply reaping what it sowed.
Leonard R.
@anon: “it is hoped that China has a rational outlook when it comes to the use of nuclear weapons, in which case we have nothing to fear.”
—
Sorry. That is a foolish hope. The facts have demonstrated that civilian command and control over the PLA is very shaky. Chinese generals have gone rogue in the past in their public pronouncements. Can you imagine an American General during the last 50 years threatening to destroy hundreds Chinese cities? Heck, even Chinese Lieutenant Colonels are popping off in the pages of the New York Times.
The PLA is a military organization that lacks command discipline.
And any American who hopes for peace with China is ignoring the fact that China has already waged war against America.
yang zi
@Anon, China is seeking the ability to defend its interest, doesn’t mean China will bully the neighbors. 9 dotted line is a long standing claim that existed for 65 years. also 9 dotted line is just claiming the islands in it, not the waters in it.
a_canadian_observer
A country with all the wonderful “development”, yet 18 people passed by a wounded, dying 2-year-old child without looking/helping. Priceless!
With such behavior, does the world really believe that these people just want to rise peacully?
John Chan
@Anon,
Making fabricated facts de factor truth is what you are doing. Both India, Pakistan and China are very wary about the relentlessly effort made by the USA to sow discords among the nations in Asia in order to profit from it handsomely. They are taking actions to rebuke USA’s shameless actions.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan:
Making fabricated facts de factor truth is what you are doing. The world is very wary about the relentlessly effort made by china to sow discords among the SEA nations in order to profit from it handsomely. They are taking actions to rebuke china’s shameless actions.
yang zi
Guys, of course I want China to be a dominate power in Asia, but it is not your kind of dominance though, it want to be a leader in economic, culture and technology. it is not going to mess with other countries internal affairs, nor to invade and occupy other countries. but it does want to win without doubt in defending its core interests. so the more accurate description is “Leader”.
To understand Chinese kind of “dominance”, you just need to check what China do when its interested is hurt by a sovereign country inside its sovereignty. Any country can kick out Chinese interests if they want to, but China always keeps quiet if it happens, why? because China is not that kind of dominating power. it is not going to send warships over or hit it with missiles.
But this doesn’t mean China will back down if a long standing dispute is disturbed by unilateral actions. China is not drilling in disputed areas, so other countries should do the same until the dispute is resolved. this is a totally reasonable approach, if you think this approach is wrong, then China has to think about other options.
The tripling of defense spending is one option I think China should consider this option. economically, it is a good stimulus that can last for 10 years (but no more). after 10 years, China can pare down the spending. I have also advocated a constitution cap of military spending under 2.5% GDP, these are all options China can take, but what China do will depend on what other countries do, especially US.
you are looking at two countries with many options. China has less cards than US, but it does have some good cards.
what China and US should do is to lay all the cards on the table, figure out a way that benefit both country. I think US policy makers know China’s options. I just lay it out to you guys so you can think about it.
may be a republican administration is better to deal with for China.