While the Vietnam War ended decades ago, its effects continue to linger on. Agent Orange haunts the lives of the people it has touched.
Nguyen Nguc Phuong is 33 years of age and a confident, articulate public speaker – comfortable on a podium in front of an audience. He is resourceful and self-motivated, as seen in his decision to leave school at 16 and relocate to Vietnam’s largest city, Ho Chi Minh City, to learn to be a mechanic and an electrician.
Nguyen later returned to his hometown of Danang, one of Vietnam's touristy cities, and opened his own repair shop. However, after seeing the impact of Agent Orange – a defoliant sprayed by the U.S. military during the Vietnam War to destroy the crops and jungle upon which the Viet Cong relied for food and cover – he decided he wanted to volunteer his time to help the children born mentally or physically handicapped due to the herbicide's tragic and grotesque effects.
“I wanted to become a teacher to do something for them,” he says, pointing out to over 40 children and teenagers at the Danang Peace Village – a center run by the Danang Association for Victims of Agent Orange/Dioxin to care for children and teenagers affected by Agent Orange.
But Nguyen's story is not typical of a thirty-something bored with a day-job and seeking a socially-responsible career break.
Nguyen Nguc Phuong's father fought in central and southern Vietnam for 10 years up to the end of the Vietnam War in 1975, and sometime, somewhere along the way, came in contact with some of the 76 million liters of Agent Orange that was sprayed on the Vietnamese countryside up.
As a result, Nguyen is only 95 centimeters (a little over 3 feet) tall and weighs in at a meager 20 kilograms (approximately 44 pounds). “My sister is the same size like me” he says. “When I was born I weighed only 800 grams and was less than 20cm long.”
“I was very angry because I did not know when I was younger why I was left like this. I wanted, I still want, to be a normal person but I know I am not in a good condition,” says Nguyen. “The salary is very little here but I don’t care, I know the center doesn't have much money,” he says. “But I want to help the other kids who are worse off than I am and help them have a better future.”
Some of Nguyen’s colleagues share similar stories. Now 24, Hoang Kim Nguyen lifts a blouse sleeve to show blotchy, discolored arms. “I don't know why I have this,” she says, “but my mother worked at Danang airport during the war so I guess it is from Agent Orange.”
Nguyen Thi Hein, Hoang's boss and manager of the center, says that she was quite aggressive as a teenager, but has mellowed into one of the center's best teachers, despite a careful, often inaudible way of speaking. “I was bullied, teased, when I was younger,” Hoang says. “Not because of my arms, but because of this,” she adds, lifting off a jawline length wig to reveal a few patchy tufts of hair instead of the straight brown or black sheen a Vietnamese woman her age should have.
She has come a long way, she feels, but a traumatic adolescence has scarred her mentally. “It was difficult for me to go outside when I was a teenager, and I am still shy in many ways,” she concedes. “But I got my diploma and I am happy to be here at the center,” where she teaches art, embroidery and sewing.
Asked if she is angry – like Nguyen – at the impact it seems Agent Orange has had on her life, Hoang pauses for a couple of seconds before replying that “I know American people were affected too, soldiers in the war and their children next in the U.S.”
For parents of affected children, the center provides invaluable support. Pang Thu Dan Thanh has two children, one son in kindergarten who seems perfectly healthy, she says. Beside her sits Nguyen Hu Thao Vi, 16, who best-buddy-style rests a hand on her mother's shoulder midway through the interview.
The teenager was born with Down Syndrome, another apparent result of the spraying of Agent Orange.
“My husband was not a Viet Cong, but he did work in the areas where spraying took place,” says mother Pang Thu Dan Thanh.
Raising Nguyen Hu Thao Vi has been difficult, her mother concedes. “She could not even sit up by herself until she was four years of age and now at 16 she still cannot speak much other than a few simple words.”
A few miles away from the center, Danang's glossy new international airport sits around four hundred yards from the site of the old Danang airbase, where American troops mixed-up and stored the toxic jungle spray. The codename Agent Orange came from the yellowy amber sheen seen on foliage along the Ho Chi Minh trail after a dousing by U.S. aircraft and riverboats.
The site of the old airbase has dioxin contamination up to 350 times higher than the trigger levels at which international recommendations for action should kick in. Given rare access to the U.S. $43 million dollar clean-up, I was told by one of the U.S. government subcontractors on the job that the clean-up will take 54 months to complete, pointing to an adjacent concrete slab covering one of the areas where the liquid was mixed and returning aircraft hosed down.
The contractor – standing in the driving coastal rain and barely-audible over the din of the blue Vietnam Airlines jet taxiing a stone’s throw away on the new Danang airport runaway – asked not to be identified as he was not authorized to discuss sensitive material, but said that the contaminated soil would be excavated to a temporary mound 8 meters high by 70 meters wide by 100 meters long, and in turn baked to over 600 degrees Fahrenheit, a procedure intended to break down the dioxin into carbon dioxide, water and chloride.
The Danang clean-up is a joint project of the Vietnamese Defense Ministry and the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) that began in August of this year, after Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced that her government would assist with the clean-up during a visit to Hanoi in the summer of 2010, amid tensions between Vietnam and China over the South China Sea, known as the East Sea in Vietnam, in turn prompting closer ties between the U.S. and Vietnam.
Chuck Searcy came back to Vietnam 17 years ago, 3 years before the U.S. and Vietnam normalized relations. He eventually stayed on in the one-time enemy terrain to work for the Veterans Memorial Fund, which cleans up unexploded ordnances from the war in central Vietnam. Speaking in Hanoi over a morning coffee, not far from the old Hanoi Hilton where Republican Senator John McCain was detained for five years as a prisoner of war, he recalls in sonorous Morgan Freeman-like tones that “when Agent Orange was used in Vietnam we were told it was harmless, that it was just a pesticide, and we believed that.”
For decades the U.S. government disputed the link between Agent Orange and birth defects in Vietnamese children, but that opposition appears to have relented, the Vietnam War veteran tells me.
Now things are changing, he says, acknowledging that “the U.S. government finally is doing the right thing, maybe not enough, but at least it is helping American veterans. We ought to be doing the same thing in cooperation with the Vietnamese people. That is late in the day, but is finally starting now too.”
Washington’s “Asia Pivot” will be in full focus this week, as newly-reelected President Obama visits Southeast Asia, with stops in Thailand, Burma and Cambodia. While in Cambodia Obama will participate in the East Asia Summit, where he will meet leaders from China, Japan, Russia, South Korea, Australia as well as his Southeast Asian counterparts.
For its part, the Vietnamese government provides a monthly stipend of about U.S. $17 to more than 200,000 Vietnamese who are believed to be affected by the toxic herbicides. Although the program costs the Vietnamese government around U.S. $40 million annually, the stipend isn’t much for those receiving it, and doesn't go far.
“We would not be able to manage having him at home,” says Nguyen Thu Thon, mother of Nguyen Viet Hai, age 24, who stays at the center. “We cannot afford to hire care for him and we need to work ourselves to make ends meet, and he cannot be left alone by himself.
Currently based in southeast Asia, Simon Roughneen has written for Financial Times, Los Angeles Times, Christian Science Monitor, South China Morning Post, Asia Times, The Irrawaddy, ISN, Sunday Business Post and others. He is a radio correspondent affiliated to Global Radio News and has reported on RTÉ, BBC, CBS, CBC Canada, Fox News, Voice of America, al-Jazeera.
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Michael Owen
You've got some of your facts wrong. Specifically, the code name Agent Orange did not come from "the yellowy amber sheen seen on foliage along the Ho Chi Minh trail after a dousing by U.S. aircraft and riverboats." The code name Agent Orange was used because of the orange band on the barrells that the chemical was stored in. There were several other "Agent" chemicals used in the war for the same purpose, known as "Rainbow Herbicides": Agent Pink, Green, Purple, Blue, and White. They were all named this from the different colored bands on the barrells.
JohnX
Vic wrote: "Of course, trying to storm the islands would be extremely costly, but it was not necessary to storm the stronghold to force Japan to surrender."
You don't really know Pacific history do you?
There were Japanese soldiers holding out and still fighting the war up until the 1970s. As a child I was told a story about the area that I was in, that someone saw some old soldiers still holding out in 1972 and so the Japanese embassy official was sent in to yell up into the Jungle to tell them the War was over.
How long do you think they would have held on in Japan and in other parts of Asia. The war on Saipan wasn't ended for 6 months after the dropping of the bombs as Japanese still held on.
Maybe the Chinese need to learn some history other than their own before telling the rest of the world 'how it is'?
Jean-Paul
@ JohnX
Unfortunately you are asking too much of these chinese posters. The only history books they have ever read out of are the CCP approved brain-washing school of hatred and bigotry. It seems like the CCP has really achieved its objective of fully brainwashing its populace into believing that Japan is still a war criminal and that the West has been bombing and killing "nonstop".
I think it will only take the effort of the international community to stop this brainwashing from turning China into the next imperial japan.
JohnX
Sometimes I think you are right.
But, I listened to the stories of those who were there and I am not willing to simply accept the Chinese replicate the Imperial Japanese.
I feel like screaming in their faces some times.
"Don't do it, war isn't the answer".
But truthfully, I understand. They are ignorant, they are so full of themselves and what Japan did to China they fail to understand that worse was done to others.
Mack
The U.S. government does something for American victims of AO? Nope. Approach the Veterans' Administration for help and the first things they ask are your income, your sources of income, what property you own, and what insurance you have.
vic
@Mack
There is a disproportionate number of veteran pilots of Hercules cargo planes (carrying Agent Orange) who died from or are still suffering from cancer. The US government refuses to acknowledge this statistic but does its best to cover up.
vjie king
If the Americans could deny that they never dropped Agent Orange on the Vietnamese, and could shift the blame of this heinous crime against humanity on to the Russians or the Chinese, they certainly would. Recall that during the Korean war of the 1950's, the Americans dropped germ bombs on the Koreans (a weapon they obtained from the surrendered Japanese doctors of death in WW2 responsible for half a million deaths by bacteria in China 1931-1945) causing outbreaks of bubonic plague and anthrax. There were independent observers (Joseph Needlam amongst them) attesting to these disease outbreaks, but the US continue to deny their war crime up to this day. US started giving limited assistance to clean up contaminated areas ONLY because they want Vietnam to be on their side to help contain China. It is NOT a humanitarian act nor an admission of guilt.
Errol
I know that story. It's not a fact, and for now, it's only speculation. Hole in the logic is why drop it on their own forces as well? Norcoms were not the only ones who got sick. UN forces did too. And we're talking about ground fighters here, not just possible handlers.
globallc
"Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced that her government would assist with the clean-up during a visit to Hanoi in the summer of 2010, amid tensions amid tensions between Vietnam and China over the South China Sea, known as the East Sea in Vietnam, in turn prompting closer ties between the U.S. and Vietnam."
Well, well, after decades of absolute refusal in taking any responsibilities whatsoever on Agent Orange, it is obvious that the little assistance now is intended to facilitate American geopolitics and pivot into Asia, Closer tie and friendship with Vietnam, LOL.
No doubt, America and Western press excel in propaganda with beautified words. They fool no one except Americans.
chandran
Hegemony is cyclical. Most great powers of the past are no more. China, India, Portugal, Dutch, British and so forth. The British ruled India for 200 years and more. Russia imploded and communism collapsed and rightly so! The United States has been in power for 5 decades and now is facing many more challenges. The idea to have a strong military for commerce is failing badly. Capitalism in the United States is no more being eroded by monopolistic corporations and large interested groups. The legacy from wars has created a large population of veterans who need welfare and are discontent.
Since Obama came to power, the idea that the US is special in the 21st century is being revisited-there is nothing exceptional from a country that makes millions out of the war machinery-the Industrial Military Complex. If ‘employment”, is a problem in the USA now, ending wars would be difficult for a country that provides millions of citizens with jobs in this business. If you end wars less jobs especially in Washington, MD and VA.
Change is coming-rather than the world accommodates the United States who always wanted to be different-the USA is being encompassed with the world-the identity of the country is being changed within. Elections and domestic policy is now dictated (at least) by Hispanics and Asians. A child who learns from the history of the US will know that war is never good-and as time passes, we will probably the USA held accountable for using disproportionate force on civilians. No longer will there not be a remedy for Vietnamese families in US courts for agent orange, Bhopal victims must be able to sue DOW Chemicals in the US-hopefully the panel of judges at the Supreme court will change to one that supports justice and democracy.
Beware that time may come soon if the drone strikes are not ended, hopefully the USA realizes this-that the time is up-Americans will feel poverty-its a flat world
John Chan
The so called pacifist and democratic Japan denies atrocities and crimes it committed during the WWII, its courts threw out cases that ex-comfort women and forced laborers sued the Japanese government for apology and compensation.
USA wrote Japanese constitution and laws, therefore by association, the USA will behave like Japan, the USA courts will behave like Japanese courts, expecting a remedy for Vietnamese families in US courts for the harm caused by Agent Orange will meet the same fate as those ex-comfort women and forced laborers expecting justice from the Japanese courts, the chance is zero, zip, nada, zilch, nix,… the answer is keep dreaming, get out of here, get a life, …
Jean-Paul
Funny how some racist chinese bloggers are always whining and complaining about the whites but last time I checked CCP still covers up and whitewashes its dirty past where it starved 30 million of its own people and brutally killed its own citizens in tianamen.
Seems like these Chinese bloggers would be better served complaining against their own government so that it does not repeat its crimes against humanity!!!
John Chan
@Jean-Paul,
Reminding the ugly past of the White is to provide constructive criticism, so that they will not behave like hypocrites without bound.
As the gospel said “Do not judge others, so that God will not judge you , for God will judge you in the same way you judge others, and will apply to you the same rules you apply to others. Why, then, do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the log in your own eye? How dare you say to your brother, ‘Please, let me take that speck out of your eye,’ when you have a log in your own eye? You hypocrite!” – Matthew 7.
The killing in French Revolution was way more barbaric and evil than in Great Leap Forward; and French behaviour in Algeria was fit for indictment of crime against humanity by the World Court. If French are not complaining against their own nation, French bloggers are definitely not qualified to point finger to anyone here.
nirvana
(Putting things in perspective)
@Jean-Paul,
To give justice to the CCP, they did admit that Mao was wrong but only 30% so. Yes, yes, not approximately, exactly 30% is the official number.
Do the math: 1% of Mao's miscalculation is 1 Million deaths, mostly Chinese. To be compared with the 200 thousands total casualties (exclusively Japanese) of Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear bombs, which was for ending a war that, if prolonged by another couple of years could claim as many as the civilian casualties in the Korean war (2.5 millions). And that would not be American civilians but Chinese, Filipinos, Vietnamese, Malaysian, Indonesian, Burmese, …and Japanese
John Chan
@nirvana,
Are you saying it is OK to kill with nuclear bombs as long as you can fabricate justification? It seems to you spreading Agent Orange on the Vietnamese is fully justifiable too because they are commie, and to save the Filipino, Malaysian, Indonesian … from falling into Viet Cong’s hand.
nirvana
@John Chan,
In a war like WW2, mass killing of civilians, by nuclear weapons or by any other means CAN be justified. The 200 thousands lives that was sacrificed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki can be justified by the saving of millions lives, Chinese to begin with, but also other SEA population, including Japanese.
If Truman was really satan, he would have dropped the only two nuclear bombs he had in 1945 on 2 capitals: Tokyo and Moscow.
Len Aldis
It is now 51 years since the US Forces began the spraying of Agent Orange on Southern Vietnam. 51 years is long enough for the US Government and the 36 Us Chemical Companies who made AO to accept their responsibilities and pay compensation to the Vietnamese (nearly four million) and their families.
http://www.lenaldis.co.uk
John Chan
Canadian bloggers should urge their government to set the example by compensating the AO victims in Vietnam for being a supplier of AO to the US forces in Vietnam.
Kelly Porter Franklin
I agree John. Trouble is, Canada is in this deeper than being a mere supplier of Agent Orange. Canada is implicated all the way back to the invention of AO and, as if this weren’t enough, poisoned hundreds of thousands of its own citizens while perfecting it for use during the American War (Vietnam War) at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown. Compensating the Vietnamese would have to be part of a larger package of confession. How on earth can Ottawa possibly admit any of this?
As a Canadian victim of AO myself, let me tell you what I think would happen if Ottawa attempted the unthinkable and tried to own up to its very real moral obligations to the Vietnamese. First, the uncompensated Canadian victims of AO would feel a heightened sense of betrayal because we, in many cases, were contaminated before or at least concurrently along with the Vietnamese (AO was sprayed on Gagetown 1956-1964, Agent White spraying commenced in 1965). Second, the ordinary Canadian citizen would reject the idea by a wide margin out of simple stinginess. Canadians don’t even support Canadians on this issue; we’ve been blogging about this for seven years now and have utterly failed to ignite a compassionate response from our countrymen (see http://www.globalnews.ca/sister+of+agent+orange+victim+says+battle+for+recognition+far+from+over/6442753130/story.html )
Further, Canadian pundits would argue that, if Canada must compensate Vietnam, so too should Australia http://directaction.org.au/issue34/australias_role_in_agent_orange_crime ; Czechoslovakia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spolana ; New Zealand http://paritutuiwd.hostzi.com/?q=node/9 ; and God knows where else. And of course they’d be right. But who can prove any of these countries knew they were poisoning Vietnam by supplying these chemicals? The USA’s ultimate fallback position is, “We never meant to hurt you,” while Canada and others maintain that AO is non-toxic to start with, possibly because we hosed our own countrysides with more 2,4-D/2,4,5-T than was ever dreamt of being sprayed on Vietnam.
I think a fellow Canadian survivor of Gagetown’s position on this matter might be a way forward that stands a chance; that we bloggers worldwide begin to petition our respective governments and the UN to treat the Vietnamese as sort of the victims of a hit and run. We have ample proof that governments and corporations will not act humanely, as with the victims of a natural disaster, so lets say it doesn’t matter who hit them as long as the world does the right thing and helps the injured. Never mind the mathematical impossibility of all those supremely toxic substances “just happening” to be components of the so-called herbicides, and never mind what some people call justice either, let’s just act like humans and help the Vietnamese.
(If anyone else has a better idea of how to penetrate the seemingly impervious barricade of BS erected by the dioxin-denying countries, let’s hear it.)
nirvana
"Imagine, the people…"
nirvana
@vic,
I wonder whether you have realized that you are contradicting yourself. Indeed, concerning the atrocities during Vietnam War (the second), the US was not the victorious party. Concerning the bombing during WWII, German Nazi and Imperial Japan were not the victims. Without Hiroshima and Nagasaki sacrifice of innocents, god knows how many years and how many millions of other innocent victims have to be added after Aug 1945, not only in Japan but also in China and South-East Asia. Recall that Hirohito narrowly escaped a coup d'état when he decided that Japan should surrender.
The ultimate proof of might is definitely not right is that, everywhere in the world, at the end of the day, the simple voice of the people can defeat dictatorship, police repression, fire squads and can repel tanks in public squares (such as in Moscow). If might was right, you would not be blogging here on Agent Orange. You would still be a Red Guard reciting Mao's red book and breaking Chinese ancient culture.
@Leonard,
There is hypocrisy in the US government and Department of Justice. But the answer to the question why the US service men got indemnified quickly and not the Vietnamese is simply a question of scale of the affected population. For the Vietnamese nobody can give an upper bound on the estimate of the cost to indemnify them, i.e. down to how many generations, how to quantify the prejudices,…
But I think President Obama should rule on the matter and should decide that the US government must officially recognize the responsibility of this war crime. Then he will truly deserve his Nobel Prize.
vic
@nirvana
US Government must take responsibility for war crimes? You are dreaming the impossible dream. It is in the DNA of America as a nation to inflict casualties on a massive scale (think genocide). Kissinger expanded the war from Vietnam to Cambodia and Laos. America inflicted as much damage as possible short of using nuclear weapons. It withdrew only because it could not totally win a conventional war. The Nixon-Mao meeting included an agreement for Chinese support of American withdrawal from Vietnam (How would you prevent the last 50,000 troops from being massacred by a hostile native population?). America was victorious in the sense that the American homeland was never attacked whereas Vietnam was virtually totally wrecked. The only way for a country to be insured against this sort of American aggression is to be able to have the capacity to wreck the American homeland similarly. The 9/11 attack on the American homeland was a "blow-back" for crimes committed in the Middle East.
nirvana
@vic,
To quote two great men of our time: "the audacity of hope" and "I am not the only dreamer. One day the world will be one".
Concerning the Nixon-Mao deal, it was not so much about safety of the US army withdrawal. Nixon agreed that Mao can keep his sphere of influence (North Vietnam and Laos) provided Mao help Nixon to bring down world communism (=the Soviet, that Mao called the Hegemonist), which Mao did. In fact Mao was not happy of Vietnam reunification, because it was a reunification outside of his sphere of influence.
Leonard R.
FWIW, the US government has recognized diseases and birth defects afflicting US veterans' and their children, as being caused by Agent Orange. However, as of yet, the US Government has not extended the same recognition to Vietnamese victims.
The list is here. http://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/agentorange/diseases.asp
Obviously, the question needs to be asked, why would it affect only Americans and not Vietnamese as well?
vic
A victorious power never gets charged for war crimes. Germany was carpet bombed, Japan was nuked, and Vietnam got the most bombs dropped and of course, the Agent Orange. Might is right !
John Chan
Please do not forget the genocides the White conducted on the natives in the North, Central and South Americas, and Australia; Inhuman slave trades and atrocities done to the African; and other crimes against humanity the White carried out on the Asians during the colonization and imperial conquests in Asia.
Anyhow the White insists history is irrelevant, by gone is by gone, past has nothing to do with the present, therefore even though they were murderers, drug dealers and executors of genocide on hapless American and Australian natives, Africans and Asians, they still can claim moral high ground and lecture all others on democracy and human rights to no end.
No one will ever hear that the International Court of Justice will indict those criminals on behalf of the countless victims, Indeed might is right,
Schminner
That's right, might is right …. just like the golden rule "he who has the gold makes the rule" … The US has both the might and the gold, for now.
Cyrus
Yes, I sympathize with the Viets who were affected.
Now, Vic and JC how is it relevant to rant again about the "whites"? I really do not get it. The Chinese are just as guilty JC, remember Shih Huang Ti and the Chinese practice of burying the concubines together with their masters? I could go on and on but it would be pointless.
You need to consider the times and what was the norms, you really can't expect to use today's standards for what Shih Huang Ti did can you? Same goes with your "white" mans rant.
vic
@Cyrus
It can be said that since the days of recorded history, no nation or people could match the level of American brutality. The nuking of Japanese cities is the apex of brutality. As might is right, America never gets charged with war crimes. For the Buddhist victims of Vietnam, they suffered in silence the effects of Agent Orange. The Bible dictates "and God says, revenge is Mine and Mine alone". However, mere mortals said, "I shall avenge my brothers' death" while they were plunging their airplanes on 9/11. A historical statement was made by the desperados on 9/11 – that a victor can suffer from a blow-back. Question – when and how will the blow-back from the nuking of Japanese cities come about ? Can the spirit of Zen prevail or does violence begets violence, that never ending cycle of brutality.
Errol
Whoa. I agree that the American war machine has a history of going to war too much, but to say that they are the apex of brutality is going too far. For starters, they're not Genghis Khan who piled up heads to make pyramids. Nor are they Nazis who methodically genocided Jews, Gypsies, and other undesirables. They're not Imperial Japanese who took no prisoners.
As for the atomic bombs used on Japan, can you actually say that everyone knew about long-term effects of radiation back then? None. Coz for all the Americans new, it was only a new weapon that packed a wallop. Do you know the options they had back then? Invade Japan thru the Kanto plains and suffer horrendous losses due to bushido. Or use the 'superbombs' and try to bluff Japan into surrendering. Guess what. The bluff worked. Had the Allies invaded Japan, you would see far more casualties than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You would see the entire civilian population of Japan's biggest island being used by the military for banzai charges. Would you rather choose that option?
John Chan
@Cyrus,
Promoting “by gone is by gone” theory? And laying the groundwork to exonerate the White who has been bombing and killing innocents nonstop since WWII?
Any bad behaviour should be denounced regardless when it happens, Chinese is not afraid of exposing bad behaviours by documenting them; Chinese history books are littered with those crimes and bad behaviours. Instead of praising Chinese honesty and courage, you use those tragedies and miseries to demonize China meanwhile you are glossing over the White’s ugly past, it makes one wonder where your moral bearing is.
Errol
Wait, I'm confused with your statement.
Any bad behaviour should be denounced regardless when it happens, Chinese is not afraid of exposing bad behaviours by documenting them; Chinese history books are littered with those crimes and bad behaviours. Instead of praising Chinese honesty and courage, you use those tragedies and miseries to demonize China meanwhile you are glossing over the White’s ugly past, it makes one wonder where your moral bearing is.
Whose wrongdoings are you talking about? Can't be the CPC coz the CPC won't allow anything that criticizes it to be printed. So you must mean the West. Guess what. Even Western literature is rife with the list of the West's own wrongdoings.
Help me understand though. How are Chinese records of the West's failings used to demonize China? Coz usually what I read is the West's records of China's failings that is used to demonize China. Or the CPC actually. You can't blame the ordinary Chinese for something he or she has no control over whatsoever.
John Chan
@Errol,
Are you demonstrating the art of twisting words and fabricating facts you learnt in the Dick Cheney School of Imperialism?
If “CPC won’t allow anything that criticizes it to be printed” then how do you know anything bad about them? Are you admitting that all those bad things you say about CPC is your fabrication?
vic
@Errol
Are you saying that the nuking of Japanese cities is a blessing in disguise? That is very twisted logic, but it does make the Americans happy. The Americans could stop at the gates without having to enter to slaughter. Only barbarians could do that, a whole scale slaughter of civilians in two cities. By the way, the effects of gamma rays were known at the time of the test blast at Los Alamos.
Errol
@JC. Wow. You accuse me of being Cheney's student. Even when I don't know much about the guy aside from the fact that he was a VP who happened to shoot his fellow hunter out on a trip. Going back to your question, we know about the CPC's failings not because of the CPC's industriousness but because of the courage of ordinary people to bring the facts to light. You follow the CPC claims that nothing bad happened back in Tiananmen Square back in 1989 and say it's only a fabrication of the West. Yet Chinese themselves remember the event. If it was only a propaganda attempt by the West, how come the CPC puts such a tight noose everytime it's the TSM' anniversary? There was also when the CPC tried to suppress the news about the first bullet train crash and the resulting fatalities. No news about commemorating the dead in the major newspapers. Also, when the Bo Xilai news was first starting, Chinese media took a hands-off approach. Only the despised Western media paid attention at the start. Should I go on?
@ Vic
Do I espouse nuclear use? Knowing what we all know now, no I don't. Your suggesting that the Americans could have just stopped at Okinawa. Is i really a viable option? The American populace, then and now, has no stomach for a long war. For them, WW2 was only an interlude that should end quickly. Your suggestion that the Japanese islands be besieged is not workable. Had the Americans left, Japan would be free to send out its armies again to prolong hostilities. So again, how should the Allies ended the Pacific war quickly?
Yes, scientists knew about the gamma rays. But doesn't that happen on the moment of the blast itself? Oppenheimer and his crew knew about that. What they didn't know is that radiation will stay in the blast site and the kill zone for years on end.
vic
@Errol
The two atomic bombs dropped were done out of spite for the Japanese. Japan's aerial and sea defenses were effectively destroyed before the nuking. For a country made of islands, the prospect of a sea blockade meant that Japan had to surrender. Of course, trying to storm the islands would be extremely costly, but it was not necessary to storm the stronghold to force Japan to surrender.
From the simple mathematical concept of exponential equation, one knew before the test blast the half-life of radioactive materials. The test blast was to test the technology of the trigger mechanism for the nuclear explosion of uranium material assembled as a bomb. The theory had mathematical elegance in its full glory.
Fedupwithstupid
Errol makes good points. The fact is, the US worked hard to develop the atomic bomb before Germany could complete it's own efforts to do so. Can you imagine what Hitler would have done with it? Once developed, our leaders were faced with the choice of using the bomb on Japan and hopefully end the war, or continue the island hopping campaign to the main Japanese islands. Okinawa was a good indicator of what that would have looked like; massive American AND Japanese casualties would have been the result. Far more Japanese casualties than the atomic bombs were responsible for. If I was in charge it would have been an easy decision: Let's see, drop big, powerful bombs on a brutal, militaristic society responsible for multiple atrocities (rape of Nanking, anyone?), hopefully ending the war in one fell swoop, OR proceed with an invasion in which hundreds of thousands of American troops would almost certainly be killed or wounded, not to mention the cost to the Japanese population. Duh. So easy for you people to play the moral superiority card 65+ years later. You forget the world had seen 7 years of unimaginable brutality and death. My guess is that people of that period would have overwhelmingly made the choice that would offer a quick end to the bloodshed, even if they understood the long-term effects of the bombs.
Jean-Paul
Great post, i'm seriously tired of people giving the US so much criticism, any other nation would have done the same at the time. It saved more lives than it took and ended the largest bloodiest war the world had ever seen.